Support Labour Like A Rope Supports A Hanged Man

Quite right Scott. However, I voted Greens mainly because of their opposition to Ahmed Zaoui's detention, increased SIS powers and their [Greens] support for self determination for West Papua (which NZ govts both Labour and Nats have shamefully opposed)

For a while they were one of the few groups getting mainstream media attention for speaking out against Zaoui's completely unfair nearly fascist detention.

Whoever is in Parliament we need strong independent groups like unions which can challenge power in the interests of the majority of people. There needs to be more to democracy than standing in a polling booth every three years.

Also, Scott, in the scenario you present, what's to stop a bunch of unscrupulous lefty (but not necessarily socialist) politicains breaking away and forming their own party to take advantage of the dissolutionment with Labour. Maybe they will even get into power. But will we be any better off or any closer to communism if they do? In other words, dissolutionment with Labour isn't the same as disolutionment with bourgeois democracy, is it?

jesus,
fuck them all. i've got much better things to do with my time than waste it voting for another authoritarian government that thinks it knows what's 'good for me'.... grrr. what a waste of time...

Hi Mr G,

I didn't vote for the Greens, even though their policies are well to the left of Labour's, because they don't have a voting base in the working class and an organisational base in the unions.

When Labour turn on the people who voted for them, then there's an opportunity for the unions to kick up a stink, and - in the best possible scenario - decide that they don't want to belong to Labour anymore, but instead what to form a real workers' organisation.

This happened to some extent in the late 80s, when the New Labour Party was formed, though Anderton and McCarten sabotaged the process by kicking out the socialists and recreating Old Labour, and it's happening in Germany at the moment, though again the form that the new party will take is still up in the air.

The Greens have a voting and organisational base in a section of the petty bourgeoisie, not the working class. They worked hard to attract workers
to their banner at this election, getting two left-wing unionists (one of them a Marxist) to write their industrial relations policy, but they failed to expand their traditional base. I think that the Greens' left-wing policies are a bit of an illusion, and that it would be very easy for them to sell out very quickly in power, simply because they don't have the people at the base to keep them honest.

A lot of their core supporters are not the kind of people who'd lose a lot of sleep over trading away industrial relations policy. In Germany, the Greens entered government with a more left-wing programme than their coalition partner the SPD, but they have remained intact, while the SPD has split, and in some cases they have moved further to the right than the SPD. Basically then I see the Greens as a diversion from the main game, which is trying to break workers from Labour.

Having said that, I was earnestly hoping that the Greens would get their votes up over 5% tonight, watching the election coverage on telly! The prspect of a Don Brash government can make anyone look good! Looks like it's too close to call at the moment...

kia ora
when has voting ever helped the working class? And now we ahve another example of the total mess voting creates yet you idiots say we should use this rich white mens system. You reap what you sow is a good saying and the seeds ahve been sown again so that we the working class can get another kicking. Thanks to Mr G and Scott and ants so far. Please will you 2 show me as we go on now how your voting has helped me and my whanau?? I am struggling nott o write something far stronger because I know you are trying to help but in the end you are quite simply saying.......we surreneder there is no other way. Who so very very sad. Would be great to meet you people in person. Sure would be lively discussion. Have you so soon forgotten 1984 and 1987??? Ah I am outta here before I tell you what a pack of fuckwits you are.

maatua: once again you miss the point that the question is how to engage constructively with the vast majority of workers who believe in voting, not to 'use the system'. If you can't find any common ground with people like me and Mr G, imagine how hard it would be for Joe Bloggs who voted Labour because he hated Brash to relate to your arguments. You might as well be on another planet.

Here's an interesting response to the election from the Alliance:

Right suffers defeat at hands of the working class

Election 2005 saw the defeat of the most concerted, open attempt by the extreme right to govern New Zealand that we have ever seen, the Alliance says.
Co-leader Jill Ovens says the Labour/Greens' victory on the night came despite millions of dollars spent by sinister right-wing front organisations like the Exclusive Brethrens, the Business Roundtable and the Maxim Institute to try and win control of the New Zealand Parliament through the Brash-led National Party.
"They have failed. The right cannot form a Government unless NZ First or other parties betray their electoral mandate and support National," Ms Ovens says.
The Alliance says it was the turnout of the working class vote in electorates like those in South Auckland that gave Labour its victory on election night.
"Maori and Pacific Island voters, the backbone of the New Zealand working class, saved the day when they overwhelmingly gave Labour their party vote. This is reflected in Mangere where Labour received around 15,000 more party votes than National."
Ms Ovens salutes the efforts of Labour Party members on the ground and unions like the Service and Food Workers' Union who worked tirelessly for the entire campaign to turn out the working class vote.
Labour supporters were still out there enrolling people on Friday night and door-knocked in the pouring rain right up till the close of polls at 7pm on Saturday, she says.
"During the campaign it became perceived wisdom that blue collar workers were being sucked in by National's tax cut bribes. But the results of the election show it was provincial and middle-class New Zealand that took the bribe. There is a clear red/blue divide on the electoral map of New Zealand after last night."
Ms Ovens says the lesson of Election 2005 is that the working class is loyal to its organisations, even though this loyalty is not always repaid.

"Despite the blatant attempt by the extreme right to govern New Zealand, it was the power of the working class that stopped them."

The Alliance congratulates the Green Party in holding its vote when most other minor parties were squeezed out by the desperate struggle between the two big parties. The exception was of course the Maori Party, which was the big winner of the night.

"It was an amazing effort to come so far in such a short time," Ms Ovens says.
Alliance members and supporters cannot help but be disappointed with their Party's vote (0.07% on election night), but Ms Ovens says she is proud of the part the Alliance played in the campaign.
The Alliance used its small broadcasting allocation to warn of the dangers of a return to the 1980s and 1990s when unions were attacked, thousands lost their jobs and wages were slashed.
"Though it did not translate into votes, the Alliance has gained respect among significant layers of working class and left-minded people through our principled stand in the election."

Maatua said:
"when has voting ever helped the working class?
And now we ahve another example of the total mess voting creates yet you idiots say we should use this rich white mens system."

that si not what we are saying at all. although scott and I disagree on a lot of things, we both agree (I think) that the current rich white mans system is completely undemocratic, unjust and designed to keep the rich on top and us on the bottom. Theres no argument there at all. we all want a revolution that will totally destory thei system and replace it with one based on socialism and freedom for all, not just the rich (who will be abolished).

"Please will you 2 show me as we go on now how your voting has helped me and my whanau??"

It hasnt. not a bit. My vote yesterday has not helped you or anyone else at all. I said that the first tiem. I voted purely cos I wanted to see a party in parliament that will talk about factory farmign and vivisection. I am well aware that the greens are unlikely to be able to do anything even on this one issue of animal rights, let alone anything else, but I want some one in parliament sayign those things, so that I as an activist can use this in campaigning. I certainly have no illusions that my vote empowered me or you or anyone else. It is no replacement for comunity organsing and campaigning, in order to builfd a rela grassroots revolutionary movement.

"I am struggling nott o write something far stronger because I know you are trying to help but in the end you are quite simply saying.......we surreneder there is no other way."

not at all. both I and scott are actively involved in lots of political campaigns and just because we took five minutes yesterday to write on a piece of paper doesnt mean we have suddenly surrendered to the system.

I beleive my little vote yesterday was almost totally worthless, but I was walking past a polling booth so I popped in and ticked a box. I felt slightly depressed about it and left. that is all, I certainly didnt sell my soul or surrender to the forces of darkness.

Mr G

If we are assuming like the Alliance that the Nats aren't gonna get in, which is not confirmed, is this really a victory for the left? More like a victory for the centre right (Labour) over the far right (National). Sure, it's great that 1991 wont be repeated again, and people on benefits wont get them slashed, market rents wont go up, and workers wont get the few paltry protections they have removed, but contra Jill Ovens Labour is not a working class party. Its run by middle class people in the interests of capital. It's being doing a slower, toned down version of neoliberalism. Working class people only voted for it because it is the lesser of two evils and they know they won't be attacked as viciously under Labour than National. Thats a good thing but when i think about it its a bit like choosing between a slow, painful form of torture under Labour or an iron maiden under National. We get screwed either way.

Contra Ovens I am not sure if the election is a clear left/right result. Its far more complex than that. The old socially conservative rugby/smoking/patriarchial family values/ section of the population has been turned off by Labour's top-down PC authoritarianism and its very, very limited liberal social policies (that's the lollies they give to liberals in return for the no-holds barred capitalist poison of neoliberalism -- in return, the liberals view Labour as "left" when it is simultaneously keeping wages and benefits low).

'Labour is not a working class party. Its run by middle class people in the interests of capital. It's being doing a slower, toned down version of neoliberalism.'

That's the top leadership and the policies, but what about the social base? Both of them have to be part of the definition of a party. Capitalist policies, working class and union base = bourgeois workers party.

I agree about the importance of the whole 'PC' debate about rival sets of 'values' and cultural behaviours to the election. Shades of the 'red states versus blue states' in the US. This is something that the left hasn't really analysed so far, but anyone who's tuned in to talkback radio can tell it's a pretty important factor out there in people's political decision-making. Still, it is interesting that South Auckland swung in behind Labour, despite the misgivings that a lot of people there must have had about Labour's 'PC'ness. In the final analysis that tribal loyalty and fear of Brash kicked in.

I think Ovens misunderstands the results the Greens and Maori Party got. They both had shockers IMO.

Scott what do you mean by "Labour's PCness"?

I always get confused when people use that term, never know what they mean usually.