Anti-fascists confront Nationalist Alliance in Wellington

Jeezus I thought these clowns were an American phenomenon. Ah well, free speech is alive & well in Aotearoa. Everyone deserves their opinion.

What a complete waste of time. All you do by organising counter-protests to tiny organisations like these is give them more credibility than they deserve. Why not demonstrate against a REAL threat to working people in New Zealand, like the Labour Party and it's friends in the Maori Party and the Greens?

Alastair Reith.

"If you think fighting fascists is a waste of time, dont do it. "

Nobody there was fighting fascists, they were throwing bagels at a handful of idiots who will not be the force the bourgeoisie calls upon if it ever again needs to dispense with this parliamentary democracy stuff and rule with an iron fist. That's what fascism is, and these people are just wannabes.

"Do you think hassling people for fighting fascists is good investment of your time?"

I'm not hassling anyone, I'm making a political criticism of this action.

Wow, this is humiliating. Above two posts were by me! :P

Alastair Reith.

ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

Watch it, it may help.

The NZ KKK are crap. They look like a bunch of dorky boy racers with no cars.

ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM

Marxism for dreamers with no knowledge of history

The same mentalities and a predisposition towards violence seems to characterize both sides. The only difference is the side of the divide they are on.

Would have thought the nationalist front would have been the first to turn to violence rather than seeing an ugly mob from the 'good' side descend upon a lone cop.

Because if the Police weren't there what would have happened?

The fascists would have been attacked, bashed and run out of town. No-one would cry, but by the same measure in not allowing those with non-popular beliefs the same freedom of expression we allow other groups just who exactly would the fascists be?

And sorry if my comment seems harsh on Alistair, but I just can't see how someone who considers themself as a revolutionary would overlook such an action as pointless.

Jared D

I've got no doubt at all that those protesting against the NF are sincerely anti fascist.

I also think in terms of the event that the early capture of the Cenotaph was an inspired tactical move.

However, I remain of the opinion that, in the circumstances, it would have been better in terms of productive anti fascism, to have left the NF to it.

Had the NF have been ignored, their rally would have been a complete non event. They would have stood around with their flags listening a couple of speeches and gone home, feeling rather flat.
Small ignored political rallies are not a lot of fun.

Being jeered at and pelted with buns is not going to make these guys think gee, this makes me realise I'm a bald bonehead. Hmmmmm, I better change my ideology. It makes them think that they are important and have the power to attract a hostile group that they are protecting New Zealand from.

If I thought for one second that these NF dudes had any potential pole of attraction as a mass force of reaction for troubled times I would have been right down there with you guys. You know I've been there plenty of times before.

It is unproductive to compare these particular people with German Nazis in the '30s. We are in a different country, in a different age. Racism and Nationalism in New Zealand don't come under black t shirts with swastikas. They come in the garb of
"Peace keepers", "maintaining our way of life", "kiwi made" " more police on the streets" " Immigration bill" and, of course, Helen's terror raids.

Well, that's my two cents worth. If we're really anti fascist we should be able to have a deabte about tactics in an atmousphere of civility and respect for differing views.

Don Franks

"Peace activists with guns forming quasi militias, similar principle going on here with the ol irony thing."

You would know you pig.

"Because if the Police weren't there what would have happened?

The fascists would have been attacked, bashed and run out of town."

Hahahahahaha!!!! You had 30 guys. Half were females. You'd be crushed and you know it. I'd take 10 of our guys against your whole crew! Be careful what you wish for, anarchists.

I wasnt at the event so these comments are pretty general.

I think Don Franks is right, in that the fascists looked silly and could have been ignored. He could well be right in that it wouldnt have mattered, in the sense of losing ground, if nobody had opposed the fascist demo. Except for one very important point.

I think Don is wrong in that his analysis is based on a classically marxian analytical pre-re-determination, a sort of inverted hindsight view. Don is right because the Fascists were not strong. But how could Don be so sure in advance? What authority is being claimed here?

In reality, by contrast, the anti-fascists were completely accountable in the way they turned up ready for anything. Nobody could know in advance what was going to happen, in terms of numbers. It would be pretty silly and very counterproductive to ignore a large fascist rally, now wouldn't it?

So in my opinion the spontaneous anti-fascist attitude was crucial. Especially when complemented by good organisation!

Theres a lot could be said about fascist tendencies in New Zealand society. However an overseas imagery and model of fascism does not seem currently likely to attract mass support. I worry more about the everyday fascism, and postfascism, that evades analysis because it doesnt declare itself as such.

That said, I dont think organised fascism is going away. Ignoring it will not starve it to death. Worse, theres always a prospect that it will normalise itself, especially if many little fascist rallies became tacitly accepted as normal and non-threatening. And fascism thrives on hard economic times, which may be approaching. So, ignoring fascist rallies involves more dangers than the dangers of over-reacting. (And nobody can know till after the event whether it was an overeaction or not.)

cheers
Steve L

we hear alot from pompous peeps on this site who critise others that actually get off their arse and do something ,wether or not i agree wityh the anti fa crews actions I still support those that are pro active ,unlike the theorising pompous do nothings

Mainstream media made the NF look and sound like turkeys, which validates the anti-fa activists who provoked them to show their true colours.
Radio NZ talked about the NF celebrating "their flag day" not the NZ flag.
The critics are just revealing their closet authoritarian leanings, which have allowed whole nations to espouse fascism in the past.
"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history ..."

I've got no doubt at all that those protesting against the NF are sincerely anti fascist.

Very generous of you Don. What the hell else would they be?!

Had the NF have been ignored, their rally would have been a complete non event. They would have stood around with their flags listening a couple of speeches and gone home, feeling rather flat.
Small ignored political rallies are not a lot of fun.

Wrong. It would have made them think they could keep having public events in broad daylight without being opposed, thereby encouraging them to escalte their actions in the future.

Being jeered at and pelted with buns is not going to make these guys think gee, this makes me realise I'm a bald bonehead. Hmmmmm, I better change my ideology.

Its wasnt intended to. It was designed to make them think they were unwelcome. They got that message.

It makes them think that they are important and have the power to attract a hostile group that they are protecting New Zealand from.

Might also make them think twice about carrying out actions if they are actively opposed. Seems unlikely rational debate or doing nothing at all would have that same effect, given the closed nature of their ideology.

If I thought for one second that these NF dudes had any potential pole of attraction as a mass force of reaction for troubled times I would have been right down there with you guys. You know I've been there plenty of times before.

They can still cause a lot of shit even with small numbers. Isn't that enough or do the masses of Workers Party cadres only get out of bed for the revolution?

It is unproductive to compare these particular people with German Nazis in the '30s.

They have the same beliefs.

We are in a different country, in a different age. Racism and Nationalism in New Zealand don't come under black t shirts with swastikas. They come in the garb of
"Peace keepers", "maintaining our way of life", "kiwi made" " more police on the streets" " Immigration bill" and, of course, Helen's terror raids.

So far.

Well, that's my two cents worth.

Hasn't the 2 cent coin been abandoned? :)

LAMA

Jared: "Alistair, once again you add absolutely nothing but reactionary tripe to the table. To say that this action was a waste of time, as anon points out, is completely missing the point."

I think calling my comments reactionary is going too far. That implies that by not thinking there's any point in inflating skinheads egos by throwing bagels at them while they publicly jack off to NZ flags, I'm a counter-revolutionary who's retarding the development of a revolutionary workers movement in NZ. I don't think you can draw that from my criticism of this event.

"Can one not be an anti-fascist and a class struggle militant at the same time? I don't see how that's contradictory."

I don't disagree with that sentence at all. But these fascists are not a threat and will never become one. They can be safely ignored, unlike the Labour Party, which represents an actual threat to the working-class and oppressed people in new Zealand and around the world.

"Once again you illustrate how unlikely it is for anyone with similar radical ideas to yours will ever want to work with you, if at every action that's not a WP one you shoot off your mouth without any worthwhile analysis."

I don't do that at all. There are plenty of actions taken by other groups that have no criticisms whatsoever with, and I've been along to many of these myself. But when I disagree with someone or something, I'm upfront and open about that - if other people on the left are too thin skinned to handle that, they can choose not to work with me. But frankly I think there's a very negative tendency on the left to not voice criticisms in order to avoid hurting people's feelings, and I think that's a tendency that needs to be opposed.

Alastair Reith.

When I say that its unproductive to compare the NF with German nazis, its not sufficient to dismissively respond: "they have the same beliefs"
Even if they have, the essential difference is that the NF have negligible potential social weight.

Declassed victims of capitalism in New Zealand are more likely to turn to the various gangs as an alternative source of self worth and identity.
And that's where they do turn, because the gangs have real power and influence and revenue. They have no need to strut once a year and write illiterate empty electronic threats inbetween.
They are out there in numbers doing the business.

Nationalism is well taken care of by the Labour government. Helen Clark and her coterie have taken every oportunity to wave the flag, the latest being the return of the stolen medals, an orgy of military worship that the NF could only dream of.
The current hero of New Zealand nationalism is not an easy target. He is an attractive looking maori vc, who has recieved media training for his public appearances. A brave man certainly, but the political message that goes ever with his presentation is duty to the flag never mind the issue.
If Labour lose the election National will maintain the same reactionary nationalist momentum.

The German nazis were largely a reaction to communism, which was a huge force in Germany at the time. It was also an international force, perceived as a threat to German capitalism .Here, today, commnuism is a tiny movement, and what there is of it is unattached to any big power like the former Soviet Union.
The Nazis drew on a fairly large well of anti semitism. In New Zealand anti semitism is widely despised. The occasional desecration of jewish property by an anti social individual receives universal condemnation.
Connected with that is the factor that previous generations of New Zealanders, many still living, fought a war agaisnt the Nazis. That unites very conservative New Zealanders with liberals and leftists in a collective disgust with Nazis and their paraphnalia. For example, Nazi Collin King -Ansel was sacked from his job as a barman at the former Eastbourne tavern when his politics were discovered. I come from Eastbourne, and know that most there are as conservative as you could find anywhere in the country.

Fascism can only emerge as a real social force by tapping into traditions of the country it's in. Hitler used anciant German mythology, Mussolini tried to recall the glories of Rome.

If a fascist current emerges here in the wake of the present financial crisis it will be an idellibly New Zealand movement, drawing on local charaterisitics and icons.

Don

Christ, you hippies need to stop leeching of this 'Evil Labour government' and get a damn job. Stop sitting around on the Doll/sickness benefits and start working, instead of whining about everything. The cops said you were warned what would happen if you threw things. You threw things. You got arrested. Seems simple to me, really. And as to the Nazi side of the camp, c'mon you tools. If you actually wanted to get some sort of votes and be a 'political' party, you would clearly stop looking like thugs.

Just stop and think a minute. You want in the government, yeah? Stop shaving your heads. Grow some damn hair. Congrats, you're proud to be white. That's awesome. Guess what? I'm proud to be white too. That doesn't mean I want to rape all the other peoples' of the world, or shave my head down.

On top of that, I doubt you'd get in anyway, if your ideas are stuff like 'Kill the Reds'. What 'Reds'? Stop living in the 1940's

Back to the freaks: Every video I've seen of you hippies protesting shit, you are always the first ones to get violent and throw shit/stir up trouble. Nice work at 'being the good side.'

I guess the debate is pretty pointless. At least in terms of changing peoples' minds. So lets make a few points instead :-)
Lets consider the different perspectives, and see how well they make sense, in their own terms, as internal critique.

Vanguardist socialists want to gain state power, therefore their priority is to weaken and replace the government.

By contrast, anarchists want to oppose unjust, exploitative authority, wherever it is to be found. Therefore they oppose the current government and wannabe governments. Yet anarchists particularly oppose fascism because fascism provides a loose blueprint and a workable historical model of totalitarian government.

(Workable at least in the short to medium term, if we compare Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's autarky, and Peron's Argentina). I think (hope) fascism is completely unsustainable in the longer-term, along with other totalitarianisms and liberal capitalism. (But that of course is why I'm an anarchist, because reality is without political authority and I am accountable for directing my energies towards some sustainable, realist anarchist society)

Also, fascist movements keep popping up globally. Though most don't come near state power, a few gain significant regional power, from which state power is potentially but a financial crisis away. Therefore it seems important to focus public attention onto fascism, including in our own locality, even very small seemingly insignificant numbers, rather than looking determinedley away, soley towards the Beehive.

I'm glad this post has contibuted to such refocusing on local fascism ;-)

The differences in perspectives are understandable given the different m'otives and tactics. But one thing at least is clear. The fascists arnt going away, unless kicked out.

Although not a material threat now (in terms of seizing state power) any fascist group provide an ideological and potential threat, as well as a day-to-day threat in the same way as a gang might. Here in Otautahi theres been linkings and alliances between race-bigoted gangs (with NF links), and more profit-oriented gangs. So I question how Don's prioritising of 'gangs' somehow excludes the prospect of fascist gangs.

Another thing thats quite clear is that anarchists and other anti-fascists arnt going away. There are those who think directly opposing fascist groups is a waste of time ( I dont say the WP because I hope that many among the WP disagree with Alistair and Don). Ok, focus on electioneering then. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any anti-fascist tactical voting though.

Above all, if the anti-fascist event was supposedly a waste of time, or counter-productive, then this article and commentary has been even more so for the critics. Unreal! For people who care about opposing fascism, the WP provides a potential tactical vote. But if irrelevant timewasting and pissing of potential voters is the indicator of WP strategy/tactics, why should anyone accept the calm authority of the WP spokespeople when they reassure us that existing fascism in these islands is nothing to worry about except for being determinedly ignored?

cheers
Steve L

"ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM
Marxism for dreamers with no knowledge of history"

more entertaining than the usual bs the turns up in these comments logs though.

It's only as piece of material moron. Black Flags - No Flags!

"Stop sitting around on the Doll"

LOL it's my toy and I'll do what I like with it.

Blame this on the abysmal NZ education system and lack of free access to ADHD drugs.

What a joke, someone actually filters through comments and deletes them? So much for freedom of speech you tossers.

Or it could've been the fact I was dead tired when I wrote this. Besides, who are you to mock me for a type, when you use things like 'LOL' ?

Lets face it. You 'anarchists' just want your moment or three in the spotlight, however you can get it. If you want to 'Fuck the system' then who will give you your Dole(WOW! I GOT IT THAT TIME!) Money? You have no purpose. You turn up to any thing, protest against it, and then go back to getting wasted.

I wasn't there when this happened. I wasn't interested in it. But if you want freedom of speech, then /all/ speech should be free. Hate speech, love speech, christ, anything and everything. You shouldn't try to censure people because they don't conform to your beliefs of live-and-let-live. If enough people decide to go all White Power, then that's their choice. If a bunch of people decide to go Black Power, that's their choice.

If they turned up and started throwing items at your anti's, that's when it crosses the line. Since your 'side' threw shit at them, you crossed the line. It was no longer about freespeech.

In fact, are you lot the same lot that protested Destiny's Church's march? For the record, I'm not a member. But either way, I remember seeing some douche with a loud-speaker trying his best to rak the DC up. Now THAT was petty.

"Capitalist governments in 2008 have learnt their lesson from the 1929 crash and are not prepared to sit back and allow the entire financial sector to go to the wall."
To the optimist who wrote the above:
Nobody is sure what exactly caused the last great depression and the same applies now, so lessons learnt last time don't necessarily apply. The great depression began with a share market crash, then there were massive bank failures, then a world war which supposedly rescued capitalism. This time the sequence is reversed, beginning with two futile Middle Eastern wars, leading to oil price hyperinflation, unsustainable debt leverage and bank failures.
Deregulation by capitalist governments allowed the development of "financial weapons of mass destruction", to quote billionaire investor George Soros, and these have begun their destruction in the last two months.
The genie is out of the bottle and it is beyond the power of governments to pay for a rescue of "the entire financial sector", if by this you mean toxic debts of all kinds - e.g. bad mortgages, credit default options. Not to mention failing capitalist enterprises like General Motors, who will also be seeking a massive public-funded bail-out.
Capitalists like to privatise profit and socialise losses, but there is a limit to how much a society can pay for the financial losses incurred by capitalism.
Prepare to meet your materialist doom.

"Prepare to meet your materialist doom."

... Says the guy using a computer. Hypocrite.

Alastair Reith.

"capitalism will have no trouble at all forcing ordinary working people to pay for its own crises."
Well according to Marx, capitalism can't even suck enough out of working people during the good times to keep the system going, hence its repeated crises.
But if you mean working people paying with their lives, in a massive global die-back, you may be right.

Tim,

You say "Nowhere did Don or Alistair claim as a universal law that "directly opposing fascist groups is a waste of time".

But they have argued that opposing fascist groups is a waste of time in the current NZ context, using the example of the recent fascist rally, and offering a theoretical justification for ignoring such fascists while focusing instead on Labour and ancillary parties, and on nationalism across the major parties. True, they didn’t state their arguments as a universal law. But nobody has suggested they did. That’s a straw man argument.

I claimed, by contrast, that their analysis as regards the actual rally was flawed. Thats because Don and Alistair used a hindsight logic for their theoretical justification. Having seen a fascist rally that was lame and run out of town, they argued in terms of knowing this in advance. They predicted it. But how? Presumably they had faith, as you also seem to, that: " It is all a question of context and analysing both the material conditions and the social forces in motion." Alistair and Don have implied that their faith in such analysis explains why they didn't directly oppose the fascist rally.

But if the fascist numbers had been much larger, what then? And if ignoring it had encouraged their following one to be much larger, what next? At what point would their analysis and actions have changed? By contrast, nobody need have any doubt where those who opposed the fascists will stand.

My point is that anoverly analytical approach is flawed, complacent and dangerous. It doesn’t address the crucial issue of stopping fascism before it becomes larger and/or becomes normalised.

Instead Alistair and Don’s approach and logic is to risk crucial initial territory being gained by the fascists, and only then reacting. That seems a reactionary logic, rather than a principled or pragmatic approach of taking precautions, even when unsure if needed in any particular incident.

Tim, you say that Alistair and Don merely suggested that “direct action against neo-nazis should not be a major political priority for the left”.

But Alistair actually said " What a complete waste of time. All you do by organising counter-protests to tiny organisations like these is give them more credibility than they deserve. Why not demonstrate against a REAL threat to working people in New Zealand, like the Labour Party and it's friends in the Maori Party and the Greens?"

Notice Alistair’s direct electioneering references. And notice the accusation of not only wasting time, but actually aiding the fascists, who could be safely ignored!!

Don echoed Alistair saying: " it would have been better in terms of productive anti fascism, to have left the NF to it. ... Had the NF have been ignored, their rally would have been a complete non event. If I thought for one second that these NF dudes had any potential pole of attraction as a mass force of reaction for troubled times I would have been right down there with you guys.

Notice how Don also suggests that people aided the fascists by publicly opposing them.

But Tim, you do not accuse people of aiding the fascists by opposing them. Instead you emphasise how there are different priorities, which seems far more reasonable. Ok. Yet you imply that Don and Alistair also did not accuse people, when the evidence is clear that they did. So have they changed their stance? I think that would be reasonable in the circumstances.

As for electioneering, Don did not bring this up but Alistair sure did! Unless of course he hadn’t noticed that elections are well underway, and was referring to the the current Government? But even then, what’s the Maori Party got to do with the current Government? We are well and truly electioneering here, I’m afraid!

So, what I said in response was, ok, fine, focus on electioneering, but if so, arn’t you being just as counterproductive as what you claim the anti-fascists are being, by pissing off radical potential voters.

Now Tim, you claim that I suggested that the WP is prioritising electioneering. That is not true. Instead I suggested that Alistair and Don were doing this, and I specifically stated that I hoped others in the WP disagreed with their approach that in their own words, merged not opposing fascist rally with electioneering. I was partly wrong here because Don only mentioned the elections, but was not electioneering like Alistair was. (Although Don has electioneered before on Indy :-)

I accept that the WP is involved in wider struggles, and that its focus on electioneering is only a secondary priority compared with raising the profile of class and other conflicts. But just because the WP doesn’t aim at being voted into state power doesn’t mean its not aiming at state power ‘by other means’. I do assume that the WP wants to gain state power, so if I’m wrong, please clarify this rather important matter.

This is where issues of the authority and accountability of arguments are important.

Whereas, for instance, anarchists dont want state power, others do. Therefore the type and quality of social analysis is important, in terms of trust and distrust of power. Clearly those directly opposing the fascist rally did not trust the arguments, evidence and logics later employed by Alistair and Don. Are they now convinced? I suspect not.

Many, I think, would have more acceptance for your own position of ‘different priorities’. This is because the ‘timewasting’ argument is itself clearly timewasting, by contrast to the crucial argument of whether opposing the fascists will prove counterproductive - or not - or has been usefully precautionary.

The historical material cited by Don is reasonably accurate, but not particularly relevant to my argument. Don also leaves out the significance of the German social democrat parties (mass left parties a bit like the WP could become) inside and outside the Weimar Government. But Don leaves out much more, in areas where fascism overlaps with other forms of dictatorship and totalitarian societies. Furthermore, I pay greater attention to the significance of randomness and contingent factors in historical change, as well as determinist predictable factors such as ecology, technology and work relationship exploitation. I have also noted the importance of ‘entrepreneurial’ factors, that is of highly risky and seemingly unlikely assemblages that, from small unpredictable beginnings, survive to become social institutions in the cultural and policy fields. I’ve also studied fascist forms of organisation, which are ongoing and changeable, in places revolutionary and in places conservative.

Having reflected on Don’s arguments, I still strongly favour a precautionary approach to fascist rallies. I’d warn against undue dependence on social prediction based on historical models. And I strongly warn against letting fascist rallies being seen by the public as ‘normal’.

To put it another way, why should activists demoralise themselves by waiting to see what initiatives the fascists can come up with, when instead they can take a day to directly prevent fascism becoming seen as normal?

Political work is a life, where initiative and style is just as important as political budgeting. Perhaps this discussion should be extended from cost/benefit analysis, and the tactics of initiative, to issues of syle? Or have we actually all this time really been talking about style?

cheers
Steve L

"who cares?"
Why did you post that then?

cheers
Steve L