What a joke! Meat is murder? Nah, it isn’t murder. For a start murder is a legal term and since all meat comes from animals it isn’t illegal. It is legal to kill animals in freezing works. Plus, to kill something it is has to be alive and since meat is already dead how can you kill something that is already dead? Thus, this slogan is a fallacy to emotionally manipulate you.

What’s next? Slogans from the animal rights cause like: war is peace, slavery is freedom or ignorance is strength? Where have I seen these before? Not in a book title “Nineteen eighty-four” written by George Orwell was it?

More confirmation that all that vegans want is a kakotopia with them wearing jackboots.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia

Come on use your brains. Of course the protest activists meant when the animals are killed at the slaughter houses. Yes killing animals is murder!!!!!!! Any which way you look at it.... And Im very sure if you were present at a slaughter house when the slaughter of animals was happening you would support the protesters in what they had to say..... Have some sense and compassion!!!!!!!!!!!!

Killing animals isn't murder because it is legal to kill an animal in slaughter house/freezing works. Stop being so emotional.

what a knob ,dk

stop making me laugh ,pure drivel

I agree, meat isn't murder, so it is an OK argument. So much for pro-ar people wanting a debate. Just goes to show that some of them are so far up themselves that they have forgotten the basics of ar: compassion.

The “meat is murder” aphorism appears to be rhetoric without anything to support it.

You obviously havent been to a slaughter house . I dare you to go and see for yourself. I bet you anything you wont dare say its NOT MURDER!!!!

Why should I go to a freezing works to see animals being killed? You should be supplying pictures of the acts that happen in there. Killing animals in these places is legal, so it isn't murder.

According to this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder murder is only applied to people. So why apply it to animals - apart to emotionally manipulate them?

No mention of animals here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder so to me the meat is murder catchphrase is drivel.

Your obviously a very ignorant person. Check out the slaughter houses one day and your see for yourself that the only drivel is you not realising what the truth is!!!!!!!!!!

What type of ghastly person would post the above remark? It’s not a person for animal rights since the ones that I’m involved with wouldn’t be so disrespectful. It’s because the fundamentals of animal right is respect and compassion and the above posting doesn’t convey any of that. It’s unquestionably a meat-eater trying to damage the reputation of the animal rights cause.

It looks like to me that the meat is murder motto is deceiving with the evidence provided. So it comes across as another stratagem of the AR movement to psychologically dominate people by compunction. This doesn’t work as I find this approach too shallow for my liking. It’s an indication that people need to take a closer look and do some significant thinking before they allow themselves to be influenced by the AR cause.

Have some empathy. No wonder the world is the way it is with the attitude you display....

Don't go balming the world woes on me. You add to them too by being in it.

Don't go blaming the world woes on me. You add to them too by being in it.

Don't go blaming the world woes on me. You add to them too by being in it.

ok ,again the same sad individual posting absolutely pathetic nonsense,the AR movement does engage in debate ,but not with the likes of this fool..get a life

What a weird remark. No wonder animal rights isn’t taken seriously by mainstream society.

THEY DO A ECXELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

THEY DO A EXCELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

THEY DO A EXCELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

THEY DO A EXCELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

THEY DO A EXCELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

THEY DO A EXCELLENT JOB AND THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN!!!!! YOU NEED TO GO TO A SLAUGHTER HOUSE THEN HOPEFULLY GET SOME COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING!!!!!!!!!

What a lot of ranting and raving. No wonder animal rights isn’t respected in mainstream society.

You obviously dont have any. Be good for you if you could open your mind and listen to what others are saying, sounds like you choose to be closed minded and this is sad for you. You do not appear to have any compassion or love in your soul.

What a nasty comment directly above. I don't believe this is a pro-ar person since the ones I've meet are more mature and enlightened and as such tend to be more respectful towards others i.e. animals and our own species. I think it's an anti-ar person set out to discredit the ar cause.

I don’t know were this person is coming from since I don’t see the one person scenario.

I don’t think this imaginary bogeyperson trick works for any free thinking/independent minded adult. It only comes across as a diversion ruse for weak minded people to focus them away from the issue that the meat is murder saying is a canard.

Well, if you look in different dictionaries murder doesn't apply solely to humans.To assume that is anthropocentric (using that word makes me sound pretty uppity doesn't it):

Murder:to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously

To kill brutally or inhumanly.

To kill intentionally and with premeditation.

I would argue that the meat industry is indeed mass murder. Regardless of the semantics of one word, the meat industry takes a lot of life on a MASS scale. More often than not it(the killing) is inhumane,cruel, and often in violation of work safety and animal welfare regulations. The meat and dairy industry creates a huge amount of environmental damage, so if you don't care about animal welfare, take some self consideration into account.

If you can get over the fact you like the taste of something and want to perhaps look at a more sustianable and humane diet you might want to read "The Ethics of What We Eat" by Peter Singer.
Or "Diet for a New America" by Tim Robbins.(I think it's Tim). If you can't be bothered reading try watching "Fast Food Nation" A dramatised version of Eric Scholossers excellent book Fast Food Nation. The scenes within the slaughter house were shot in a REAL Mexican slaughter house.

Can we have some impartial confirmation, please, because all I see is rhetoric? Some internet links to some solid, independent and dependable sites are in order, especially to dictionary ones and to the films cited. Thank you.

Oh, by the way, nothing wrong with sounding a bit uppity. You don't come across as offensive to me.

Is the Creutzfeldt Jacob Disease scare a cover-up for the real thing or is it possible to be contaminated by sterilised tools?
Anyway, meat doesn't smell like meat anymore....

It’s highly disappointing to see so many remarks have been deleted associated with this article. It appears on the surface that free thinking individuals aren’t allowed to express their reasonable views even though some of them go against the widely held opinion here that animal rights is the be all and end all of the universe.

Is this forum becoming another nanny/police situation, where everyone has to be politically correct, which according to some is horrifying? Or is it that some of the editors have let some power go to their heads? Otherwise, have they been allowed to be dominated by the fear and paranoia of a small number of people or by a few that were distressed by what was written? Either way, the possibly of any of these scenarios is exceedingly terrifying!

I have been watching with interest as this forum unfolds and most of the comments that have been taken down were adult even though some were a bit critical and judgemental. The comments that included name calling, including dk, needed to go but the rest were OK. If anyone were upset over them I think they are overly sensitive and need to take a step back for a while to calm down. (Unfortunately I can’t seem to find the comments that were deleted at indymedia.org.nz/newswire/hidden/index.php or at similar internet page, so people can’t determine for themselves if they needed to be pulled or not.)

I hope that the editors here won’t be so overbearing and heavy-handed in the future. Also, they won’t go overboard in the censorship.

hey,

over the last few years, several people were declared 'spammers' on Aotearoa Indymedia (dk is one of them). This was done by the collective either at conferences or in discussion over email lists. It is always the same person who spams features on animal rights. That person is a spammer. You can read about that on our wiki (although not right now because the server running it is currently down).

as to why these comments aren't showing up in the hidden section? i don't know. they used to but don't anymore since we upgraded our software and i haven't got a clue how to fix it.

smush - AIMC ed collective

I'm sorry to read that you're having software problems and have been hit by spammers. I'll read about them when I can. Still, I don't understand how anyone can see it's one person that is a spammer when it appeared to me that it was different people expressing their opinions opposing animal rights. Maybe I'm just stupid.

with the animal rights spammer we get 15 comments in 20 minutes or something like that so we are fairly certain it's the same person. we don't track ip addresses or anything like that but the style, the time of posting and the fact that they always come up on AR articles are enough indications that someone is spamming.

Thank you for the expansion on the believe of a spammer or spammers. I still can’t see it as it may be 15 different people passionate about the topic commenting on it within a limited time frame, all with a similar style because of their education or outlook. Still it’s up to the editors to manage this internet site as they see fit. It might pay to clean up this thread of comments because of the repetitive comments from an AR person that has typed in capitals just to be consistent with the policies of this site.

By the way, thanks for your reply.

Don’t worry about the spammers because some of them are cunning. Even I can’t figure them out from the real postings, except for dk from his rude remarks, and I’ve been reading the articles here for years. (I read the articles here to get some balance from the news you read in the papers, listen to on the radio and see on telly.)

Long time reader, first time posting.

If anyone would like to find out more facts about spamming and trolls in regards to the internet and emails go to: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_(electronic) and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mail_spam for some interesting reading.

There's some fascinating history with these topics.

There are a lot of issues surrounding the eating of meat. Meat can be pork, beef, lamb, chicken, fish or boiled potatoes. The above list is not exhaustive but there is no type of meat that does not fit within the list. Eating meat is ok provided she is not asleep at the time.

woops im the editor.

Vegans are a blot on society.

Anonymous 2 April gave plenty of references. These are not available on the internet for obvious commercial reasons. It is usual in scientific and ethical discourse for those arguing a point of view to give their references. It is not however normal for them to hand those references to every reader. Readers interested in following up on the refrences should be able to find them themselves. You could try any public library for the Singer reference, and any DVD hire place for the film ones. You could also read accounts on the treatment of animals and their suffering by the Scientific Veterinary Committee of the European Commission on pigs, broilers and layer hens. These are government appointed scientists, not animal rights activists, and they come to the conclusion that much commercial agriculture is inhumane. These are all available on line, but don't be so lazy. Google them yourselves.

I could also send you some reprints of my own peer reviewed studies on animal agriculture in New Zealand if you are really interested, but I will need an email address.

Phil

What a cop out, Phil. I don’t see why not anyone that is for or against anything shouldn’t present impartial evidence at the same time. It’s easy to do for forums such as this by providing web links. Getting others to do it for you is only you being lazy. You’re not in university now. Anyway, thanks for your offer of your own peer reviewed studies. It is much appreciated. Keep up your good work!

Pick up your game, Dr Phil the vegan of CAFF, as you’re letting your team down! It’s because of your sort of slackness that animal rights is not highly regarded by most people. If you argue something contribute corroboration at the same time as it’s easy to do. Don’t expect other people to do your running around as it’s disrespectful. I suggest you do some minor paradigm shifts. The rest of us aren’t indoctrinated by the twaddle that goes on in universities.

I don’t know where Phil is coming from. When I did some of my research papers I had to supply some form of substantiation in the way of references and bibliographies at the same time, in the back of the research project. So I don’t understand why people don’t supply evidence in the same form or by internet links here when they make allegations. Extraordinary assertions need extraordinary confirmation to back them up.

It looks like the standard has changed and the old ways aren't enough anymore. :-(

I think references, bibliographies, pictures and internet links are a good thing when debating for animal liberation, to back it up. Otherwise, it comes across as rhetoric and surely our animal friends don’t deserve that?

Yup, they deserve better than that!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric

Sometimes rhetoric is propaganda and dogma by someone ranting and raving on a soapbox.

HEY GO TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE AND YOU WONT SLEEP!!!!!

HEY GO TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE AND YOU WONT SLEEP!!!!!

HEY GO TO THE SLAUGHTER HOUSE AND YOU WONT SLEEP!!!!!

What a lot of rhetoric i.e. ranting and raving. I’m not prepared to be dominated by emotional means.

Obviously not because you obviously dont have one. A heart that is.

There you go! The true nature of some that use this forum. I leave it up to free thinking individuals to decide what nature they have.

So much for animal rights being about compassion and respect. :-(

It does look like the forum has become a police state. Even some of my comments are gone and I've only be posting here for about two months.

Before you know it, Sue Bradford would come up with a meat anti-smaking bill, and there you can't use reasonable force to lead it to the slaughter let alone killing it...

Here are some fun facts about animal rights: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_liberation_movement and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights. Since this web site is used against animal rights let’s use it for the AR cause. :-)

Good shit!

lol! Take that ,dk!

There's a book about a study of the bird flu that states almost all the major epidemics among humans since like the 20th Century began or something have been a result of factory farming animals and the way animals are kept and slaughtered that has resulted in the dire threats from influenza and like a half dozen other viruses -- all the deadliest diseases that have faced and are to face humans.

What's the title of the book and who authored it? Can an internet link be provided for it, as well, please? I would like to know since I would like to read this book.

A web site link will be good. Then I might be able to buy a copy of the book, about the link between epidemics and factory farms, online.

Who knows, SAFE might get a copy of this publication for its library?

lets hope so

I'll find it....

Good, thanks!

Looks like the book mentioned above is a lie since no proof of its existence has been supplied.

the monster at our door: the global threat of avian bird flu

And the NZ Police force with their perverted sexual habits.

the monster at our door: the global threat of avian bird flu

I wonder if some of the above posters are just not trying to understand. Have a look at any scientific paper and you will see a list of references, all of which should have been cited in the text. But you will not see those references actually printed out. To refer to them you will need to go to the library yourself.

It is easy enough to provide internet links, but not everything is on the internet. Publishers of books and academic journals need to make a living, and if they put everything on the internet they would go out of business. That is not something out of university, it is commercial reality.

And as for the slogan "meat is murder", it is obviously not possible to summarise a philsophical argument in 3 words without losing some clarity. It is a reminder of a longer argument, originally from the Smiths, which from memory goes something like "it is death for no reason and death for no reason is murder". Again this is a simplification for the sake of poetry, and what they should have said is "it is death of a sentient life form, with a sense of its own identity, for the trivial reasons of gluttony and avarice, and this kind of killing is tantamount to murder, which is also defined in terms of the killing of sentient beings for no reason (ie killing in war or for reasons of self defence or survival is technically not murder). So it is a moral, normative statement, not a factual one. But I think you really knew that and are just nitpicking for the sake of it.

Phil

What a remissive individual you are Phil by not willing to provide impartial confirmation when presenting an argument in the form of at least an internet link to a reliable source. If you aren’t willing to do the basics then your arguments can be dismissed as rhetoric or straight out lies. We aren’t conditioned by this university claptrap.

If you can’t summarise a philosophical argument in three words without losing some clarity then why use it except as a programming tool?

Give the guy a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hes doing better than any of you because his heart is in the right place not like the rest of you, your all obviously ignorant ignorant people!!!!!

I agree, he has his heart in the right place but it takes more than that to benefit our animal friends. They deserve better don't they? He could do better if he choose to.

Sometimes you got to nitpick. That way you get rid of the lice.

Phil, don't you believe that our animal buddies deserve better than what you learned in uni.? It's them that lose out in the end if we can't do better than what mainstream society provides, that includes moral normative statements.

What a lot of petty comments. I don’t believe I wasted so much time reading all of this crap.

It’s a shame that the vegan/animal rights people can’t do better in their arguments since the ones I’ve meet seem an intelligent bunch.

they do ,your just here to nit pick and dis credit,please get a life

What a bizarre comment. Is this why animal rights isn’t taken seriously?

Like what has already been written: sometimes you need to nitpick. That way you get rid of the lice i.e. the unwanted material that may cause harm.

I don't believe that the "they do..." remark is from a pro-ar person. I think it's from an anti-ar person trying to discredit the ar movement.

get a life ya twit

Gee, what a weirdo the above person must be to write the posting directly above.

Looks like that homophonic dork, dk, has been trying to bring into disrepute the AR movement again. F*#k off creep!

I think the word you are looking for is homophobic.

Meat comes from animals that are farmed and killed in large numbers to feed us humans. I love the taste of meat. how do we kill animals with the least amount of stress/pain possible.

Meat comes from animals like Peter Davis

it looks like 2 me that ar people are cocksucking mutherfucking shitheads!!!!!!!!!!!!!

get lost ,peter davis ,aka dk

the least amount of stress or pain? from a shortened lifetime? from a life in a cage or a fenced paddock? do you enjoy living with a lifetime with a maximum length? do you enjoy living in a cage? cause you do live in a cage. do you enjoy feeling superior to animals? what makes you so special that it's okay for one life form to die unnecessarily for your taste? does that feel good to have one set of values for yourself and conflicting values for others you deem inferior to yourself? freedom for all I say.

Tim Blackheart

what a lot of rhetoric ,pure poppycock