Hi,

My name is Max Hardy, I was one of the organisers of the protest.

I understand that we must protect everybodies right to free speech,

however we do not feel that a school is right place for political activities.

Remember The DC were in our school for about 2 years with little objections from students, until they marched to parliment in black shirts spouting hate.

Our Argument is that High Schools are the WORST place to be if you are gay, and the abhorrent suicide rate among this group doesn't seem to be declining. And therefore as a school we have a responsiblity to protect that marginlised group of our community.

Destiny Church has no place in our School.

I don't like the Destiny church, but they have as much right to use public venues for their meetings as anyone else. And part of being tolerant is tolerating intolerance. The destiny church are not bullying anyone, they are simply spouting views that some will find offensive.

Well so what! Some find the animal rights message offensive, and I remember an anti-GM camp being held in a schol that some found offensive and tried to stop.

I've seen some of these Destiny church in action and I'm quite bermused by their colective behavior and I'll be having word with the guy Im hanging off about giving these idiots what for.

Firstly Felice, I am tolerating your intolerance. I repsect your right to say whatever you want, in any public venue. What I don't respect is any attempt to stifle free speech simply because the message offends you.

I agree with Don about the Destiny Church, and I can also see similarities to the National Front. The NF have some pretty unpleasant ideas about immigrants, but if you actually examine their policy (much easier just to scream abuse at it I know, but as a former government policy adviser, old habits die hard and I actually try to understand policy before I tear it to bits), you will see there are some parts, such as opposition to free trade, that the left will actually agree with.

The NF are likely just as disenfranchised as the Destiny mob, and they have probably been told that their economic marginalism is the fault of immigrants. They need to be educated ad engaged with, not simply derided.

Ha ha you shouldn't 'tolerate' a group who wants the removal of the basic rights of another group of people - otherwise you'll be trapped in a circular logic of doing nothing, ever.

All skinheads are taught to rely on that argument ie. You should tolerate my message of removing all Asian New Zealanders etc. otherwise you're only being hypocrites to the principal of Free Speech (skinhead goes away and has a good laugh behind your back).

Thomas Jefferson's saying "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance" is his insistence that we must always be guarding against the erosion of one group's basic rights by another, the students at Wellington High are the only one's remaining true to that notion in this case.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Shalom!

meat?!?

Have the destiny church actually "come for" anyone! Has anyone actually been threatened by them (as opposed to simply offended?). If not, then Thomas Jefferson's saying is not relevant for this particular case. In fact it is reversed. First they come for Destiny church and we say nothing because they are a bunch of rabid nutcases and we don't like them, and then they come for animal right activists, or other minotiry groups, becasue after all what they say offends a lot of people too.

Destiny are a small bunch of sad deluded nutters who do their own cause no good by their posturing. By being so frightened of them we give them far more power than they deserve.

The Destiny Church is no different from the Nationist Front and the animal rights movement! All they give is DEATH BY DOGMA! I do see that they are all the same because each are a small group trying to impose their believes, that are stupid, on the rest on us.

Now the Destiny Church are upset because they are not allowed to walk over The Auckland Harbour Bridge. An answer to that is if they are so holly then whay can't they walk on the water of the Auckland Harbour to cross it?

Don et al, I don't think there are many activists who put opposition to Density as their top priority or are deluded as to what the ultimate problem is (i.e an economic and political system that oppresses and marginalises the weak). All the same, thats no reason to ignore them when they come into peoples communities with their fucked up message. Showing people you are opposed to Density (as an organisation) is part of the same strategy of reaching out to current or potential cult members with a better alternative. The two approaches don't cancel each other out. We are against the hierarchy of Density and the views it propagates, not against the folks who have joined them because they see no alternative.

Protest Density and offer an alternative that doesn't lose sight of the bigger picture.

yes-its time to be rid of these religious Nazi's

Phil said:
Have the destiny church actually "come for" anyone! Has anyone actually been threatened by them (as opposed to simply offended?). If not, then Thomas Jefferson's saying is not relevant for this particular case. In fact it is reversed. First they come for Destiny church and we say nothing because they are a bunch of rabid nutcases and we don't like them, and then they come for animal right activists, or other minotiry groups, becasue after all what they say offends a lot of people too.

Destiny are a small bunch of sad deluded nutters who do their own cause no good by their posturing. By being so frightened of them we give them far more power than they deserve.

Yes Destiny have come for the weak and uneducated and are busily tything their benefits to give them a sense of community.
Their public face of black shirted thugs waving their fists in the air and massed around their sharman may be viewed as a potential threat.
Your secription of Thomas Jefferson and Destiny being nothing but "sad deluded nutters" is being slightly hopeful, the German Nazis tapped into the same sought of despondency and found themselves in power

so we should tolerate people who wish to tell us what to do,bully us, allow them to insult us,our children and everyone who doesnt agree with their views ??? They have the right to tell homosexuals, people born out of wedlock and other so called sinners that they are wrong and should repent, so we therefore have a right to tell them to fuck off!!!

The students of the school have to use those facilities during regular hours and the various Destiny propaganda is still up on the walls. Its not so much about bullying people physically its the negative atmosphere their activities and existence add to the place. Why don't they go make their own church building or whatever and leave people alone?

@ phil
>>>and I remember an anti-GM camp being held in a schol that some found offensive and tried to stop.<<<
The school is, as far as I know, a private school that chose to host the anti-GE camp in january 2004.

You have a perfect right to tell them to "fuck off" or anything else. Though I would suggest being more articulate in your criticism if you want if to be listened to. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

What you don't have the right to do is hound them out of town because you disagree with them. I take the point about posters being put up in the school grounds. No other group is allowed these, so they should be removed during school time. But the Destiny church have the same rights to freedom of assembly as anyone else.

A school isn't simply a public venue.

If intolerance must be tolerated, then you can tolerate my intolerance of intolerance.

Some activists make opposition to Destiny church a top priority and some label Tamaki's followers "sheep".
I had a good look at them when I joined the counter demo at parliament.
They looked like low paid working people to me. Knocked around low paid workers, many looking like they'd done time or been battered by the system in other ways.
Destiny’s rank and file freaked me out, because they were so hyped up and full of barely repressed rage, which looked like exploding right in our faces.
Now, here at home, out of the firing line, reflecting on those rather desperate people I ask myself where did their anger and discipline come from.
Their anger comes from being marginalised by an economic and political system which burns them out in shit jobs and kicks them out when they cease turning big enough profits for the owners of the means of production.
Their discipline comes from being attracted to an idea of militant unity.
Con trickster Brian Tamaki has misdirected poor people’s anger against groups who aren't responsible for their conditions but make a handy scapegoat (eg gay women and men).
The anger of Destiny members would return them more as part of a united militant trade union movement . We don't have such a thing right now. Instead we have well paid bureaucrats dribbling on about "engaging with Labour to build a high value economy". Council of Trade Unions leader's fantasies of class collaboration offer no real hope to low paid Destiny church members.
Destiny is not about sheep, its about despairing people, currently following a demaogue for lack of an alternative.
Building the left and the labour movement will help split Destiny members away from their demagogic leader. Of course Destiny ‘s reactionary social policies need opposing. Just remember, its not Destiny who sends the cops out to twist our arms and fine us and tell us what side of the road we may stand on.
The main obstacle to liberation in Aotearoa is the party that that imprisons people without trial, bans workers solidarity strikes by threat of fines and imprisonment, actively supports US imperialist oppression in the Third world, bans gay marriage, exploits child labour, threatens the unemployed in their own homes and gives big hand outs to capitalist business.
That’s right, Labour.
We should be dealing to the organ grinder, not the monkey.

Well done to the wellington school kids for their actions.

but in line with Don, i think we tend to think too much about comparing (wether correctly or not) the destiny church with fascism and the appearance of fascism and forget the most important thing - why aren't we going into low paid communities and organisign them aswell as giving them a sense of community? that's exactly what destiny does, but with a right wing message.

Crucify the Liberal.

For all you people who are uninformed about the animal rights movement, don't worry, there is a lot of information on the internet (vegweb.net etc..) I do understand where you are comming from though..ie. "ignorance leads to fear" and all that, so I can see why you would say it's stupid and all about controlling people. Good luck.

you are totally right about the animal lib movement. Information about animal rights hasn't really made it to this island yet. New Zealand consists of ignorant fat asses because of diets comprised entirely of meat and dairy. The internet should help overtime and kiwis can catch up with the rest of the world. yay

www.peta.org/about/faq.asp

Vegan: Do you find that you have to suppliment your diet with a fistfull of tablets everyday? or Do you find yourself eating brocolli constnatly?

And another I haven't come across very many animal rights people trying to "bully" me into their way of thinking ,any that have got a very polite "you have your reasons and I have mine".

No, I don't need any supplements. Most of the world is lactose intollerant because we don't have the enzymes necessary to break down lactose in our systems, hence lactose intolerance. Cows make milk for the same reasons as other mamals like us. At 26 years old, I'm far to old (as most of us are) to be drinking breast milk; especially when it comes from another species. Drinking cows milk makes as much sense as drinking dog or giraffe milk. There are also levels of pus and blood in all amount of milk (more in chocolate because the colour can hide it (milksucks.com).

Where do vegans get calcium you ask. No not supplements as the meat and dairy industry have been convincing the gullible. I get calcium from the same place cows do..dark greens. Dark Greens like spinnach and kale are high in calcium and our bodies absorb it much more directly. Cows milk also lacks magnisium so it actually leaches calcium from your body giving the western world the highest rates of osteoperosis. Cows milk also contains anti-biotics and pesticides which can cause cancer and other degenerative diseases.

I get protien from nuts, legumes, beans, chick peas, lentils and of course toffu and soy..

So to answer your question, no I don't take any supplements or abnormal amounts of broccoli and I don't get food poisoning, mad cow disease, ecoli 01957...

Want to hear a great reasons for guys to go vegan? We are not (contrary to urban legend) designed to eat meat.. We are, like other primates primarily vegetarian. Carnivores have much longer intestines so the meat isn't rotting when it gets to their colon's. Meat eaters should definetly get their colon's scraped out regularly to avoid colon cancer. Another thing that happens besides heart disease (which is the top killer of kiwis and caused by meat gluttony) is blood not going to extremities like your dick!!! That's right eating meat is the prime cause of impotence. Eating meat also blocks your hair folicles and is the reason baldness effects men who are the predominant meat eaters..

Vegans have better smelling body odour and better tasting body fluid (hence the term "vegans taste better") because of the rotting that is not going on with us.

Want to know why some vegans are more pushy? Because you carcass eaters and swillers of blood and pus filled breast milk are destroying the environment that we all have to live in.

Residues from herbicides, hormones, pesticides, antibiotics, nitrates and fertilisers can be stored in animal fat, internal organs, eggs and dairy products.

26 Billion tonnes of topsoil is lost annually from overgrazing farm animals.

A meat based diet uses 40% more fuel and resources than a vegetarian diet.

Despite the fact that New Zealand has signed the kyoto protocol, because of the 12.5 sheep per kiwi, the sheep produce enough methane gas emissions to put nz up there with amerikkka and asstralia as the biggest climate changers per capita in the world. (equivellent to 150 million people).

130 million animals are killed annually in New Zealand with many remaining consious as their throats are cut and they bleed to death.

24,000 CHILDREN DIE EVERY DAY FROM HUNGER IN THE POOR PARTS OF THE WORLD ALONGSIDE FIELDS OF GRAIN DESTINED FOR THE RICH PART OF THE WORLD'S LIVESTOCK!!!

Over half of the world's grain and almost all the soybean harvest is fed to animals.

Over 125,000 squar miles of rainforest is destroyed annually to raise cattle.

Over 80 million animals in New Zealand are crammed into appalling filthy conditions where they live in a constant state of fear, suffering and misery.

It takes 20kg of grain to produce 1kg of meat.

So no I don't take any supplements, I don't eat any broccoli and if some of us vegans seem pushy its just because were tired of carcass eating, food poisoned, blood and pus mother's breast milk drinking, floppy dick swinging, bad fart and body odour smelling, child starving, resource and water depleating, animal torturing, green house gas emiting, climate warming ignoramasus thinking were way out to lunch when we are actually ahead on the crest of a wave of human evolution when you haven't even noticed the ocean yet!

Right, all things in moderation except unnceccary killing and oppression.

That's right and as was pointed out, and can be verified by a number of sources on the internet, a healthy diet can consist of no red meat at all!! Infact, a diet of no red meat is better for our bodies and the planet in general so if we look at health in a wholistic sense instead of a mechanistic one, we find that veganism is the best choice! Those fats you were talking about can be obtained from cashews and avacados and drinking those fanta drinks is bad anyway because there is really no nutrients in those junk food type drinks anyway..

All I'm saying is all things in moderation, besides there's more chance of geting hit by a flying cat than ending with cancer because of eating a very small amount of red meat once a week and while I'm ranting Have you not considered other factors such as radiation for instance.

One last thing if you want to save the world then remove the human element!!!!!!!!!

I agree that it is a shame that so many children have to die because of the fact that 90% of their grain harvest is going to countries which GRAIN FEED their livestock like America to produce an end product which is more tender and contains more Marbling (Higher fat Content).

The only reason so many animals are being slautered is because the majority of the population doesn't know or doesn't want to know that 100gm per week is all the red meat needed for a healthy lifestyle and if you think a 600ml fanta doen't contain much sugar you'd be mistaken the grand total is 20 Teaspoons.

And to make things worse Destiny church have their gruby little fingers in the political pot as well, however theirs is futile cause and has no chance of even winning a single seat.

I agree with KITT and others that the Destiny Church are fascists. They are no different than the Nationist Front and the animal rights groups: trying to bully the rest of us into their way of thinking.

And I agree with the comment if they are so holy then why can't they walk on water instead of using a bridge?

In my opinion the Human race has no choice but to get off its collective anus and explore Space more actively instead of relying on a handful of orginizations like nasa each country should be working on its own space exploration program, aside of this there is a choice of launch methods like a Railgun although this would require an imense amount of energy.

So your post about killing and oppression is somewhat unwarranted.

Indulging and benefiting from the mass slaughter of millions of sentient animals everyday isnt a "right" anymore than committing genocide against Jews is a right.History will judge intentinoal meat eaters who have other options WORSE than Nazis or slave traders.There is more pain inflicted in one single day against animals than the entire history of pain inflicted upon humans.

It is a sad day when the animal rights movement has more sympathisers on the far right than the left.

Have fun protecting 'gay rights' while ignoring the millions brutally slaughtered everyday.The new left no longer has the moral high ground.