No arms race at our place - join the clowns and paint your face!

And a good front page article in the Dominion Post with a picture of a very pretty protester pinned down by a very mean cop. Good stuff!

www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3448082a11,00.html

Shame on you for trying to impede the brave men and women who guarantee our security from foreign oppression.

You should all go and live in a Japanese prison camp.

You can live in peace only because there are armed organisations that protect you from crime and war.

These are the police and defence forces.

In your delusion, you think they are the cause of war and criome, when actually they are the cause of the peace that enables you to eat, sleep and protest.

I don't recall NZ ever being under attack - maybe you were hallucinating?

aaawww internet loooove ;o)

As a societal member of the Citizens for Respect of Armament Programmes (C.R.A.P.) I applaud you Biffo the Clown for your excellent argument against these deplorable dole-bludging losers of society. How dare they try to stop innocent businessmen and respectable military officers from just doing their job. It is the armament and military industry that keeps the world in peace and keeps our economy going. It's not like food grows on trees you know! If it wasn't for our careful trading and exchanging of goods, and our restructuring of those backward third-world countries, these useless protestors would be living in the gutters.
Hear hear for our brothers in blue - will have to top up that bonus of theirs this year hey comrade?
P.G.
C.R.A.P.Soc.

Words from our comrades in Britain: www.beyondtv.org/nato/crap/craps.htm

As a societal member of the Citizens of the world, i applaud the clown army and all those who were at te papa opposing the arms trade.

- those men in blue ain't my brothers -

What was good about the Dominion Post article? There was almost nothing about the defence industry, no mention of the government funding for it and comments from the museum and the conference chairman justifying holding erence at Te Papa.

On top of that, activists created some of the most colourful and meaningful photo opportunities in years, full of brilliant juxtapositions, and we get the usual photo of a cop holding somebody on the ground.

re: I don't recall NZ ever being under attack - maybe you were hallucinating?

Just because something hasn't happened in the past isnt to say it wont happen in the future. Furthermore, when there's violence etc in the Solomans for example its lucky that our armed forces can go and PREVENT KILLINGS. I'm all for the prevention of the proliferation of arms, but c'mon NZ isn't exactly going to go out massacring anyone.

Yeah right. I guess Vietnam was a long time ago and people have short memories.

OK Biffo You're right about Vietnam. And perhaps things may have been different had Brash been in charge with regard to the war on Iraq. However, I reiterate, there is still a necessity for us having a peacekeeping capability.

realist1 peace keeping force get real. Our peace keeping force is cover for us to help oopress people world wide, like in bouganville in papua new guinea where newzealand soldiers stood by while aussie soldiers burnt down churches full of civilian women and childrn. Hardly keeping the peace?
In Iraq our peace keeperes shoot and get shot thats fighting and killing not peace keeping. As long as they stay there there will be war.

Australian soldiers burned down churches full of civilians?

You're a freaking nutzoid.

No wonder nobody takes you clowns seriously.

bonza issue raising skills cob

long live the revolutionary clown army!!!

Much fun to be had, the filth dug there own hole this day, there was a amazing feeling within the whole protest group of resistance and determination!

Kia Kaha, all involved, which everway you played out your part.

All I can say is that when we create 'peace' in our own country then perhaps, if asked, we could go and help others find their peace in their territory. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember Iraq asking for our help, or Afghanistan, or Vietnam or Korea.....
Our 'peacekeeping' forces and the SIS/SAS are in wartorn countries for one reason only: strategical positioning for securing more of the world's resources and power over others... that and the ancient ritual of heroism/saving others for our own egoism.
Get over it, go home and do something better with your lives than selling grenades to corrupt governments to kill innocent civilians. Go to the beach warmongerers. Go grow tomatoes, anything, just leave the rest of us real peacekeepers alone.

Hey I just got done reading this post on IMC and I must say, as an American, PLEASE KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING. Because if you don't your country will start down the dark, dangerous path that my country has. Currently the US spends $450 Billion dollars, more than the next 37 countries combined, on its military. Look how much the Iraq war is costing the US, not only in lives (1,988 as of this morning), but monetarily as well. That's my money being spent to kill children for oil to fuel our war economy. As of right now the Iraq war is estimated to have cost the US, the most affluent country in the world, $202 billion dollars. This is money that could have been put into our dilapidated schools, or to give medical care to the poor, or to pick the dead corpses off the streets and feed the hurricane devastated people of New Orleans. I'm watching my own country fall apart before my eyes and NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

If you in NZ don't check the power of the military/industrial complex it will take over your government like it took over ours. Then your government will complain that it has no money to help the sick, the poor, the hungry, the disabled, or to build schools, or homeless shelters, or free clinics, but it will have plenty of money to go running around the world slaying dragons in the name of protecting the business interest of the wealthiest 1%.

Please keep it up Circa. I'd come help you out but plane tickets are expensive and I heard NZ is like 16 hours on a plane. 16 hours of those God-awful inflight movies. Ouch.

in respnoce to get real

... wake up

Good to see people protesting against the capitalist junta that is making money from death. Keep it up!

GREAT STUFF!

Loony detector, etc,
PNG is currently one of the most violent and rape prone "peace-keeping" zones. the aids rate is climbing out of control, and the Police and Military are accused fo committing rapes on girl children once they have been arrested for vagrancy (orphans),
This was reported in the World (B) section of the DominionPost in September/early October, as part of a report into violence in the country made by International observers.

Get you head out of the sand!

Clownfriend etc, "Get your own head out of the sand." If it wasn't for the peacekeeping forces in PNG the place would likely be even more chaotic where it would be less possible for reporters to highlight the human rights abuses of the officials there. P.S: To all of you clowns, I bet I know who youw would call if there is an intruder in your house. Anarchy is only good when there is an abundance of resources.

Do you clowns accept that we need to have weapons to protect us from people who would do us harm? Or do you think that if we get rid of weapons we'll get rid of war?

There's no peacekeepers in PNG proper, just 19 NZDF soldiers in Bougainville doing monitoring the ceasefire - which was negotiated, not enforced by foreign intervention.

And one of the main reasons PNG is in a mess is the proliferation of high-powered weapons that are causing previously minor conflicts to become increasingly deadly. Many of these were issued to police who sold them or gave them away. Some protection.

Neither are there any SIS in war-torn countries.

Actually getting rid of all the weapons sounds like a damn good start to getting rid of war. It probably wouldn't stop wars entirely, but it would make them much less extensive and much easier to resist. Reducing the capacity of governments to make war is a very worthy aim.

Actually, I think the NZ military does do a few useful things now and then - such as training people to clear mines. However, it's not a great return for the billion dollars a year we spend on them.

That money would go a lot further, and save a great many more lives if it was spent on resolving the causes of conflict, engagimg in on the ground dipomacy in conflict areas or fixing things after conflicts. There is never enough money for this work, but the world has no shortage of grunts with rifles, NZ doesn't have to add to the numbers.

Realistically, as these so-called realists profess to be, there are many kinds of armed conflict. Each society can choose how to defend itself but which society has the right to attack another? (apart from the usa..) Exporting weapons abroad does nothing to increase this country's safety, or any other's.
Simplistic debate in itself is what can lead to wars, people need to debate dangerous activities to the utmost (such as making extremely violent weapons in home garages) before blithely accepting weapons' exporting as 'good for business' -ye shall reap what ye sow,

Hey guys you made the Guerilla News Network Good News Roundup for the week.

Get rid of guns, grenades and bombs and people will use knives. Get rid of knives and people will use sticks. Get rid of sticks and people will use their fists. Get rid of fists - oh that's right, some governments have already tried that (ie Hitler, Stalin, Mao) and that's one of the reasons we need guns, grenades and bombs.

Human nature, not weapons, is the problem. Stunts like this might excite comfy middle-class activists but does nothing to 'stop war'. When push comes to shove, that role inevitably falls to armed forces of democratic nations which have to use violence to stop violence.

I'd certainly say a fight with sticks beats a fight with grenades any day!

It's always predictable how these arguments go -- it always ends up with the "realists" coming out as bitter old cynics who think people are inherently evil and aren't very honest (how do you know these people are middle-class - did you ask them? Or did you just decide they are as it fits your preconcieved notions of the world?).

The only 'solution' they have to violence is increased violence in response. Yawn.

It's tough isn't it Sam, when someone points out that the world doesn't correspond to the model western "peace" activists have in their heads?

How do you know i'm "old"? Or did you just decide I am as it fits your preconcieved notions of the world?.

I assume these activists are middle class, because poor people can't generally afford to flit off round the world to anti-G protests in Italy.

I didn't say "people are inherently evil" although some are and we have to protect ourselves from them. Unfortunately that sometimes means using weapons. Sometimes violence is the only option left against a determined enemy.

Many activists can't accept this and still want the public to believe that violent fanatics can be pacified with a group hug. Dressing up in funny costumes can't obscure the fact that defence and weapons remain a necessity.

REALIST- you are right. we do need to know how to defend ourselves, but on an individual level!! its when the state purchases weapons behind closed doors and ultimately uses or participates or accepts the use of such weapons undemocratically, literally inhumanely!!
There is a large difference between this sort of defense and individual defense.
Power and strength to people in the streets!! not to people with access to the 'button'!!!!!!!!!
Their business is much more threatning..
I can live my life without tanks etc... why cant they?.. because they arent human beings!! there psychotic potenital murderers if they dont get their way...
Booooo to weapons manufacturers
Yayyyy to clowns

"Realist" I was using 'old' as a metaphor for your mentality, I couldn't have had a clue what your age is, since you don't use your real name.

So far as I know, I was the only person at the demo who has ever been on a protest in Italy, so how is that evidence of them being middle class? And do you consider everyone who isn't 'poor' to be middle class? By the way, I went to Italy from London using money I'd saved while working as a park keeper and as a sales assistant in a shop -- not very 'middle class' professions.

"Sometimes violence is the only option left against a determined enemy."

I agree, which is why selling them weapons, or letting them buy them with our tax dollars is a really bad idea.

"Many activists can't accept this and still want the public to believe that violent fanatics can be pacified with a group hug."

No they don't - you're just making things up again.

Sam, where is NZ selling our enemies weapons, or "letting them buy them with our tax dollars"?

It appears you take a nationalist view of who our enemies are, which I don't, so you might disagree with me as to who is an "enemy". I would regard any state military as a potential enemy, including New Zealand's (which was what I meant by tax dollars, though government money goes to weapons companies as well). As many weapons manufacturing countries have discovered in the past, today's client is tomorrow's foe.

Anyway, here's a couple of particular examples Oscmar sells training systems to the Israeli defence forces who targetted UN peace keepers (who included NZers) in the Lebanon war. Safe Air worked on Indonesian air force planes and the New Zealand military provided training and other support for the Indonesian military who later organised the militias in East Timor who were responsible for NZ's only official combat casulty since Vietnam.

Good call Sam.

I know Islam is not my enemy - I said radical Islam. You know the ones who murdered 3000 people in downtown NY, and killed New Zealanders in Bali and London.

Or perhaps that didn't happen and I've just been brainwashed.

I don't soley take a nation-based view of our enemies. I think militant Islam, which transcends the nation state, is currently our greatest enemy.

So are Israel and Indonesia our enemies?

realist - the enemy is the media, is the wave that brainWASHES you!>!>!>!>!>!
Islam is no enemy of yours. If you feel threatened by islam then leave the city. but it is your own paranoia baby

I think militant islam only raised it's ugly head as a response to the fight for dominance of resources between the ultra rich and powerful, when the powers in arabia had been rendered powerless and/or complicit by said forces and the people that live in these countries were thrown to the wolves, and has exported itself partially because the forces causing this don't live in these countries. they live in luxury and are virtually untouchable, and the people that support them are us. Western consumers of the worlds resources. Why wouldn't they target us. They just want their lives back from the oil/resource wars which are devastating them. It is all in response to our ignorant greed fed by the ultra greedy for their profit. The jihad was called in response remember. And are you aware of the british usa led genocide being committed anywhere nuclear and oil resources are sourced? depleted uranium pollutants will kill all animal life.Empty lands are easier to control. I suggest those here who call themselves realists do a bit of real research and find out from truly affected people rather than listen to the media owned and controlled by the same people profitting from the wholesale deaths and destruction. We know now the US killed so many Japanese in a "show of strength" to assert their right to dominate the world,militarily and otherwise through resource capture.It's a simple issue with complex manifestation. But any resource users above the basic food water shelter level are complicit in every rape torture and death of children, womin, families,communities.All the things the"realists"here are promoting as reasons we should support the status quo

Salamado - so if you use any resource above subsistence you're complicit in rape, murder and torture? Gee - this means there's a lot of guilty toddlers out there. And bin Laden is hardly what you'd call poor.

Sam - please provide a reference for your claim that Israeli forces targetted UN troops incl New Zealanders.

There's been several instances of the Israeli military targetting UN peacekeepers - the best known was at Qana in southern Lebanon in 1995, when artillery hit a UN base full of refugees. An Israeli drone was circling overhead at the time, so this clearly wasn't an accident. This was well reported at the time, in the London Financial Times amongst other places, which you can look up at a library.

Sam, if you really believe that most people are not inherently evil (as I do) then surely you'll trust them with the right to bear arms!

Yes, I do trust ordinary people to bear arms. I've lived in communities where owning a rifle or shotgun was common and never felt the least bit threatened. I don't trust the state, or its proxies, with arms.

The politicians and military officers who control the use of the weapons we are discussing are not "most people".

Big deal. In New Zealand we all live in a society where owning a rifle or shotgun is commonplace. But unfortunately concealed carry of handguns (or other firearms for that matter) for self defence isn't legal.

So if you think Kiwis should have the right to carry firearms for self-defence I wonder how you feel about Jews (as individuals) carrying firearms for self-defence? And what about Jews living in Judea and Samaria? Or perhaps you don't think they have the right to self defence? Or perhaps you think Judea and Samaria should be Judenfrei?

Just posing the question!

WOW! This was also a feature on Instanbul Indymedia: istanbul.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/73306.php

ultimately it would be better for us all to learn how to defend ourselves with our bodies!!! guns are just a product...

I wish the Maoris had guns when the white people came to fuck them over.

There is something else that needs to be said about guns, knives, bombs, stealth bombers and other weapons that kill at a distance. It is not new; the knights of the middle ages knew it. A gun is a coward's weapon. It makes it much easier to kill somebody when you can squeeze a trigger and just see your target from a distance, without any interaction with your victim. It is even easier when you never see your targets at all, just a button which you can press to eliminate thousands of people you don't even particularly hate, but who stand in your way of cheap oil or free trade deals.

Banning distance weapons will not stop people using fists and knives, but it will certainly drastically cut down the number of deaths. Because to go up to somebody, sense their fear or pleading, and get yourself messy with their blood, at some danger to yourself requires either genuine hate, psychopathic tendencies, or absolute desperation. And these conditions are not all that common.

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