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User-pays for water in Wellington

The Wellington City Council (WCC) is proposing more draconian policy that is anti-people and pro-profit.

Alongside a host of changes that will see businesses and rich householders pay less rates and poorer households pay more, the Council is heading towards full-fledged user-pays for residential water supply.

The fixed charges for water services are set to double to $450 for the next rates year. And Mayor Kerry Prendergast is saying that every property will have a water meter so people pay for only the amount they use. This is scary.
Whose Water? A Wellington Public Forum
water.jpg
It used to be that water was just part of general rates, so that if you had a more valuable house you paid more, a less valuable house you paid less. The whole new right belief that 'pay what you can afford' is actually inefficient and unfair (read rich people are getting grumpy) hit local government in the 1980s. The Rating Powers Act 1988 allowed local government to introduce user-charges for water. Under the Act councils were allowed to charge people for how much water they used, usually done by installing water meters at each household. And, for those not charged by the amount they used, a universal water charge was introduced, so everyone, rich and poor were charged the same amount - the new idea of fair.
Now the Wellington City Council (bar Councillor Bryan Pepperell) is proposing to again reduce targetted rates (based on property value) and increase fixed rates. So this will mean people, no matter how rich or poor will all be paying a whopping $225 for sewerage and $225 for water.
At the same time, the Council is making a serious plug for people to install meters at their house and get charged for the amount they use which is a current option for residents. My guess is that they're hoping that people will be scared off by the large fixed charges, and opt for installing a meter. Whether it's Kerry Prendergast's wishful thinking, or a new council policy that every house will have a water meter, I'm not sure. But once water meters are installed, the corporate dream of water being just another commodity will be realised.
Here's why water meters are a bad idea.

1. Once everyone has a water meter, perhaps being lulled by an initial low cost per cubic metre compared with a high fixed cost, there is nothing stopping the Council increasing water charges to whatever they like. This is what happened in Auckland, where within a year of meters being introduced some households were being charged $1000 per year for water.

2. Water metering, as with any user pays system, is bad for the poor and okay for the rich. It won't make much difference to rich people if they're paying a bit more to fill their swimming pool and wash their Jaguar. They have the incomes to absorb that sort of charge. It will, however, make a big difference to poorer people, already struggling financially, who need water for cleaning, cooking and drinking. It will especially make a difference to poorer people with large families, who have less money to go around as it is. Inevitably, larger families will use more water for essential things like cleaning, cooking and drinking.

3. Residential ratepayers with water meters are charged exactly the same amount per cubic metre as commercial ratepayers. There is a clear message that a person's right to use water for profit is considered exactly the same as a person's right to drinking water. If you need big official organisations to validate what your gut instinct is, the United Nations have declared that the right to water is a human right.

4. Once meters are installed, and water is being charged for per cubic meter, it's much more like a product than a council service. And the great thing about products, for those thinking along those lines, is that someone can make a profit from it. The Council, just quietly, will have created a neat little package that can be sold off to a corporation.

5. The Local Government Act 2002, though government claims it prevents the privatisation of water, actually facilitates public private partnerships (PPPs) which allow government (or councils) to maintain ownership of a resource, but the management of a resource (let's say water) can be passed over to a profit making company. Everyone except the New Zealand government considers PPPs a form of privatisation, but here that view is recognised as being politically unpalatable so they're put up, erroneously, as an alternative to privatisation. WCC councillors have already been attending meetings where water multinationals have been talking about how their models could be applied here.
The WCC, could, as it tends to do, go:

WCC: Oh we're terribly in debt, we can't possibly afford to keep managing water, and we don't really have the skills to do it, whatever are we going to do.

Enter nice multinational company with vast international experience in efficient water delivery, stage right.

WCC: Aaaaah we're saved. No don't worry we're not selling water off, we'd never do that. It's perfect, we keep ownership of the water, and this nice company will take over the management of delivery, price setting, profit making - oops! we mean efficiency concerns, that we can't possibly deal with.

6. On most tenancy agreements there is now a little box which says, should a water meter be introduced, tenants and not homeowners should pay for the water. So landlords have a very easy way to transfer the cost of water on to tenants and it won't be considered a rent hike.

Special note re environmentalism
Unfortunately, people who think that water should be a tradeable commodity and want it run by businesses like any other profit-making good, use environmental arguments to justify this. The argument goes people will use less water if they have to pay for it, they will be more careful about its use. This is wrong, wrong, wrong.

1. Because user-pays affects poorer people more. Rich people can afford to waste water and will keep wasting water because a price disincentive does not affect them. It tends to be richer people with larger lawns to water, more cars to wash and swimming pools to fill that are problem water users.

2. Because the real problem of water use is not residential users, but commercial users. If there was genuine concern about the environment and water wastage, the government would not be encouraging the development of thirsty industries like the dairy industry, it would be charging businesses more for water.

3. Because there are alternatives. The Wellington City Council used to have a free service, presumably to prevent water wastage, of fixing people's dripping taps. An excellent targetted service that gets to the heart of a genuine problem and fixes it. Bring it back WCC. It tends to be poorer people who put off getting the plumber in because feeding their kids and themselves takes priority.
4. Because look at the cretins who use environmental arguments to justify user-pays in water. The Business Roundtable harped on for years that water should be sold off to private companies, and developed a nice little 'people won't waste it as much' argument to go alongside it. Roundtable, no doubt, represent the same businesses that are always always complaining about compliance costs (including meeting environmental standards) are a terrible burden for business. Let's be clear. The motivation for the Roundtable and others promoting user-pays in water is the fervent hope that they, or their business friends, could get their hands on the immeasurable profits available to someone in control of an essential service.

What people can do
If you want to use the Council process make a submission to the draft long-term plan.
Say clearly that you believe residential water supply should remain as part of targetted rates. That the residential flat charge for water should not increase. That you do not want compulsory residential water meters.
If the Council start installing meters then there's a wonderful legacy from the Auckland Water Pressure group of disabling and digging up the meters.
I'll add information on what else people can do later when I have more details.

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Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Thanks Maria, as a fledgling rate payer and self-employed person who doesn't have a lot of spare cash floating around to subsidise the rich water users of this city I really appreciate this analysis - I look forward to more!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I would love to have your comments about water and the LTCCP on www.pepptalk.net You can post on the forum.
Cheers
Bryan
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

User Pays ? Fine
As long as it is User Pays for all other services
that councils charge for - garbage, roads, lighting,etc but of course 'then' they cannot charge land rates which is the real 'con' of all cons.
We must remember that these 'services' in most cases are allready paid for, that is, the initial installation with maintenance being the only other major cost on these utilities.
They are, in most cases 'owned' by their communities either initially or by the inflated taxes that followed.
Why buy a home when you will never own it ?
Investment ? which is just a desire to profit.
Or building a family/community life which takes love and perseverance and sharing.
Similar systems operate elsewhere - US,Europe as I imagine that's where the evil scheme came from with it's multi-tiered government copying services, multiplying taxes and beaurocracy to the point where the enemy is 'us' because most of us are then forced to work for the 'system' to the grave.
Who benefits ?
The rich and greedy.
Who does not ?
The poor and the needy.
Did God promise us a life of slavery ?
Just the opposite.
Yet evil men and women would have us believe otherwise and act accordingly.
amen.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Why bother paying the enormous rates if they bring in privatisation of the water supply. This is a double taxation to the greedy self interested beuracrates who are probably doing under the table deals to line their thilthy greedy pockets!!!!!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Fight this every step of the way. Mass civil disobedience is the only way. You can petition and cajole to your heart's content but in the end the only way you'll defeat it is to refuse to accept it. Privatisation of the water commons is a crime. Don't let them get away with it. Remember the dead in Cochabamba .....
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I went to this meeting. Maybe the second half of this meeting turned out to be really good, but I missed it because I had to go out and be sick.
That was down to the performance of featured speaker Geoff Bertram, Senior economics lecturer at Victoria university.Specialist in "Lighthanded regulation"
Betram arrived 20 minutes late and began by having a go at the Alliance for "relying on principles rather than practical issues."
He went on to say that water could be commodified, often had been and there was one country where this "worked well" with "no complaints" This was in the UK and the achitect of the privatised water success story was Maggie Thatcher. Thatcher "understood regulation"
This could not be done with the present New Zealand government, who had ideological problems with deregulation. Bertram stressed that what you need to make water privatisation work is "intelligent people working together"
He went on to develop his theme that struggle for public ownership and control of water was a waste of time.
There are all sorts of "anecdotal horror stories" on the internet about the bad effects of water privatisation" said Bertram. These can’t be relied on to prove anything - "all you get is the battle of the anecdotes". What you really want is "academic research"
He waved a thick document around and said, yes it was pretty heavy reading, but it came from university studies and proved that there was no difference between privatisation and public control of water. So there. Then he referred to a South African report which showed infant mortality had dropped after water was privatised.
Schoolboy debating tricks contrasting " academic research" with " the battle of the anecdotes" carry a certain plausibility if delivered in a glib confident manner, but they won’t guarantee your kids a free clean glass of fresh water.

What was the Alliance playing at to waste our valuable time with this fast talking gameplaying ivory tower Thatcherite?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don - are you only interested in hearing from speakers who will repeat what you already believe?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don's disgust is spot on and fully justified.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don's disgust is spot on and fully justified.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Totally agree Malcolm. We don't want to hear anyone who will challenge our worldview.

Who is the Alliance person who dared invite Geoff Bertram? Whoever it is should be dragged before the central committee for some ritual humiliation and made to apologise.

I suspect Bertram's appearance was a conspiracy concoted by Act, the Round Table, and those bastards who make Methven taps.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Shea, I'm interested in hearing views different to my own. Sometimes they change my mind about stuff.

I'm not interested in overpaid upthemselves bullshitters who play power games.

It is a trick as old as the priesthood to wave a thick book about, imply that others would be too dumb to read it and then, without opening the thing, claim it is the way and the light.

It's intellectual arrogance of the highest order to dismiss all internet evidence against water privatisation as "anecdotal horror stories"

One of my day jobs is helping abridge the latest academic economic textbooks. Some of them contain interesting stuff; others employ nothing by Betram's purile tricks.
The Alliance advertisment for the meeting suggested it's purpose was to organise against WCC water privatisation plans, which have been festering away for some time. That's why I went, not to hear Betram's shoddy performance, the like of which I am only too familiar with.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Hi Kane and others
I would like to thank you for putting on the other night. I have mixed feelings about what happened and said as much at the time.

I want to add a little as I think that I should have been more outspoken. As a guest I felt constrained, as I age it happens more and more. I don't think it's a bad thing to be that way, to be considered and not shoot from the hip so much. I guess a lot of money has gone off shore and what's left is causing people to turn on each other ( Cheers Ken ).

let me start by saying what we should have said more emphatically after Dr Bertram had spoken that profit is an extra cost to business. However we need to say that even more clearly..." Personal private profit is an extra cost to business". We want a water deliver service that is done without personal private profit. I agree with those who say public service should undertake these things and do it in house and I stand for such a philosophy. In some ways I'm the odd man out and the reality now is that it won't happen without a paradigm shift. So much is contracted out and I have been a lone voice in saying no. Even CityOps is a token gesture compare to how things have been undertaken in the past. I'm afraid bad management put an end to all that and the baby got thrown out with the bath water. A kind of headless activity has taken place and so no half measures on a local and national level. The culture of greed took over and infiltrated Government and local Government from top management down. The philosophers and thinkers have been ineffective in stopping this.
If Dr Bertrand is two faced then he is not alone. However once you walks away from the idea that personal private profit is an extra cost to business there is nothing left to cling to. Some badly run governmet and local government activities screwed up an lost heaps of money but mostly as a consequence of bad political direction and that should never be lost sight of. - Enough for now.
Cheers
Bryan
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Ratepayers, did you know that ththe Wellington City Council is proposing to double the flat uniform charges that you pay for water and sewerage? At present the charges are $112.50 for sewerage and $112.50 for water (if you don't have a water meter). In its Draft Long Term Community Plan (Budget) the Council proposes to charge $225 for water (for those without a meter) $225 for sewerage for each property

There's More

The Council intends that within a few years residents, not business will pay most of the rates.
This is despite:

- many services provided by the Council (eg., roads, water, sewerage, and assistance to business) benefit business directly;
- services to residents also benefit business because most residents work for these businesses or are members of workers' families;
- over 40,000 people come into Wellington City each weekday from outside the City to work for these businesses.

How Will Residents Be Affected?

- Nearly all residents will pay more rates - rates on a property of average value are proposed
to rise 6.4% this year, nearly double the inflation rate.

- If you own a lower-valued property you will have a higher percentage increase (eg., 17% if your propety is worth $200,000 and it value increased by 10% in the last year).

- If you pay rent, it will no doubt go up.

What You Can Do

Phone, email or write to your local Councillors to tell them that you oppose the Draft Long
Term Community Plan.
Help circulate a petition against the Plan.
Contact the Residents' Coalition - phone Ron 934-2816 or Warwick 9344-626 or
email warwick.weatherman (at) gmail.com

For more information visit www.freewebs.com/wjtnz or www.pepptalk.net

Oppose the Council's Draft Long Term Community Plan!

Authorised by Wellington Residents' Coalition Southern Branch, PO Box 6705, Wellington.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don Franks,
You should have stayed and made your point.I certainly didn't agree with Geoff Bertram, Senior economics lecturer at Victoria university- Specialist in "Lighthanded regulation". So you might have learn't something by not leaving. I'm always surprised by what so called politically left leaning people say. It was interesting listening to Sharon Clair from the CTU give her take on water as a public good.

Cheers
Bryan
www.pepptalk.net
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Bryan, life is short and fleeting.

I don't have time to waste pissing about with slippery two faced bourgeoise academics.

I am interested in being part of a mass campaign for free water, so keep me posted.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

That's funny Don. I'm looking at Wellington Alliance's notice of the meeting. It's quite clearly billed as a "public forum" and "all are welcome".

It certainly gave the impression that this was a meeting to discuss the proposal not to organise against it.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

No Shea. You are a fruit cake if you think that.

The meeting was billed as a call to community activists. And between 40-50 Wellington-based community activists, from a range of groups and parties, came along to the meeting.

The Alliance is strongly against the privatisation of public goods such as water. The Alliance's policy states:
- Amend the Commerce Act 1986 so that water provision can no longer be a commercial activity. Illegal to cut water supply;
- Opposition to the contracting out of water services and public-private partnerships. The return of water services to 100% public ownership and community control through the abolition of corporatised local authority bodies;
- No signing up to international agreements such as GATS that open up services such as provision of water, electricity, transport and telecommunications to ownership and control by multinationals.

Don had every right to walk out in disgust. I chaired the meeting and was far from in agreement with many comments, and academic fluff, that flowed from Geoff Bertram's mouth.

Bertram, a former Alliance member (he told me he now votes Maori Party), was recommended to us by a couple of local members who heard him speak critically at a Grey Power meeting on electricity. I had never heard or met him previously. Had I known what he was going to say (I'd position him as basically Keynesian, as well as throwing in the academic tricks that Don talks about), then I would have been against him speaking at the meeting.

On the other hand, Bryan Pepperell and Sharon Clair (CTU Vice President Maori and nurses organisation unionist), who confirmed she could speak the day before, were more in line with the audience's ideas and thinking - a group willing to stand up and fight against the rot that is Mayor Prendergastly and her ilk!

There are a number of groups concerned about the possibility of increased user pays and privatisation measures with regards to water in Wellington - including takutai poneke and the residents' coalition. Working collectively, people power will end the flow of profit going to capitalists when we turn on our taps!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Hilarious!

Let me recap:

The Alliance organise a meeting to discuss an issue and invite an academic on the assumption he'll parrot the party line. They fail to actually check out what he thinks.

Academic fails to say what the Alliance and attendees want to hear.

The organisers, some attendees and other speakers then attack the academic for holding unsafe views, call him names and impugn his political views because he no longer votes Alliance.

This is a perfect example of what too many leftists think political debate should be - an echo chamber for their own views.

No wonder the Alliance is where it is today.

Kane - in future make sure you stick to tame economists who will tell you what you want to hear.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

No prizes for guessing who's funding Shea.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Quick tell me - I haven't got the cheque yet.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Shea you've got a shitload to say about other people's stances havn't you. Where do you stand on water privatisation?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

What Shea you're stupid enough to support the establishment view without getting any reward? (Apart from not having to think for yourself.)
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Bryan, maybe I should have stayed and learned. Because I have never heard of before and do not understand at all your fourmulation that :

"profit is an extra cost to business."

What does that mean and how does it operate in practice?

I have always understood that profit is the unpaid labour expropriated from workers by a capitalist and distributed by various means among the capitalist class, measured in proportion to the total capital invested. The notion of profit is closely related to that of surplus-value.
Surplus value is the unpaid labour expropriated from the working class as a whole.

Do you - or this opinionated shadowy Chez Tomotoe person have a better take on this?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don
I'm sorry that I've confused you. What I mean is that private profit is an extra cost to the consumer. My use of word business(transaction) is not how some people understand it. In the old strict accounting terms profit is always a cost to the consumer. Profit is never a cost to business. However profit in the triple bottom line (ie taking into account social and environmental factors) can be seen as a negative thing.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Fiddle Cashew asked, "where do you stand on water privatisation?"

Thanks for asking Fiddle. As a supporter of smaller government I'm in favour of water privatisation. One of the proper roles of government is to provide things that the market can't or won't supply. Government supply of water is a historical situation; water is simply a commodity that can be supplied by the market - it is not a public good.

However if local government was to relinquish the provision of water there should be a corresponding reduction in rates. Unfortunately I don't have any faith that the current WCCouncillors would do that.

Don, I'm not an economist so please don't expect a textbook definition of profit. Think about the question from the other way round; profit is simply the incentive which motivates people to serve others. Without the incentive of profit why would people work long hours, put their lives and property at risk, and generally put up with all the stress and hassle of running a business? They do it because the prospect of profit exists. Once profit is made the people who create it can then have expanded choices about what to do in their lives.

The left may decry profit but without it our goods and services would be inferior (see the Soviet Union) and we'd all be a lot poorer.

Profit is not the enemy. It's simply the reward for meeting other's needs.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Gees Shea. You reckon "profit is simply the incentive which motivates people to serve others"

Duh?

mate, even an economist wouldn't get it so wrong.

like the rip off artists marketing bottled water are "serving others"?

"Once profit is made the people who create it can then have expanded choices about what to do in their lives."

pOOP.

Actually the people who create the profit get none of it; they have to make do with a wage. An increasingly inadequate wage. Which will not stand the extra expense of privatised water.

So we the people say go go Bryan! Show the rancid capitalistic bastards no quarter!!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

As a matter of fact I think you've given us a pretty good textbook definition of profit there Shea. A central function of capitalist economic textbooks is self serving mythmaking about wealth creation.

Why on earth can't water be a social good, like air?
Or will air be next?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Fiddle asks - "like the rip off artists marketing bottled water are "serving others"?

Of course they are - if you want bottled water, businesspeople make it available for you to buy - that's a service. If you don't want it, you don't buy it. Where's the rip off? Nobody is being cheated or defrauded - it's a voluntary exchange.

"the people who create the profit get none of it; they have to make do with a wage". The ability to pay wages comes from a business's income. When wages and other costs are paid whatever's left is profit. Often of course costs exceed income so there is no profit. Ultimately without profit there are no wages.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don - I said 'public good' not 'social good'.

I'm talking about the economic definition of a public good, although I think the term 'public commodity' is more accurate as it removes confusion over the word 'good'.

I can define a public commodity. Can you define a social good?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

"Social good" = a city council water privatiser strangled with the intestines of a two faced academic.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Come on Don, you can do better than that.

If your're arguing that government should provide social goods, please define a social good.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

In case you didn't notice Shea, the cart came before the horse with bottled water. We've never needed it and never used to have it untill bullshit marketers started persuading people that their balls would shrivel up if they didn't drink the stupid shit. Then they say Oh, but people want it. Like they want foot crippling high heels and reality shows and aftershave and cricket max....

Same thing with profit. The profit cart is not pulling the workhorse. Before there's any value there has to be work, that where it all starts from.
So get your head out of the horses arse and support Bryan for free water for the workers!!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Capitalism = the greatest good for the greatest number of people.
Yeah right
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Fiddle - you may not want it but you can't speak for everyone else. Clearly some people do want these things - that's why they buy them. Are you saying they're stupid and you know best?

Of course there has to be work before there's wealth. Businesses owners work as well. If they're successful, profit is a return on their efforts and risk. Workers don't have the same level of risk, but are rewarded for their time.

But back to mains water as opposed to the stuff in bottles. What's special about mains water that says it must only be supplied by government?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Hey, that's sort of like my old report cards. Shows promise, can do better.
Probably not in this case.
"social good" is conditioned by time, place and circumstance. In the context of this particular argument I think the suggested use of the academics guts is probably as pertinent as a social good gets, although I grant you it may be a bit presumptuous to assume they have any.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

You've got it right for once Shea, workers don't have the same level of risk. They have a much higher one. When it suits the property owner to close the plant workers are CHUCKED OUT ON THEIR ARSE WITH NOTHING.

Why shouldn't water be privatised?

Because Bryan's against it and he knows what he's doing. trust him.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Don - sorry, but I can't make head nor tail of your definition of a social good. Presumably it's so vague that it can be used to capture anything you want. Can you be more specific?

And here's why Fiddle thinks water shouldn't be privatised: "Because Bryan's against it and he knows what he's doing".

Brilliant. I'm sure I heard someone say a similar thing about Brian in a Monty Python movie.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

thats an ENTIRELY different Brian you dummy.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Shea is a selfish bourgeoise prick and further more whoever gives one of these little ones just a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, most certainly I tell you he will in no way lose his reward.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Mathew, who knows nothing about me apart from what I've said here, calls me a "selfish bourgeoise prick". Fiddle calls me a "dummy" for confusing Brian of Nazareth with St Bryan of Happy Valley. I'll put a little (-: there next time Fiddle so you can tell it's a joke.

You guys are never going to win any arguments if all you can do is abuse people and call them names.

I'll try again - what makes water so special that it should only be supplied by the government?

And please don't call me names - you're hurting my feelings.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Shea, the wee face is a good idea, because otherwise who would get your so called joke!

Dummy isn't as bad as stuff I've been called in my time, so come on.

the issue is not water being supplied by government, go deeper. The issue is water being free, free, FREE. They are now saying water will be the next oil as a scarce resource. The Yanks use most of it to wash cars and grow golf courses and shit like that, while poor countries they plunder don't have enough to drink.

If you can't see the injustice there, maybe you will be called names, better than dying of thirst mate.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Most of the poor in Aotearoa have got jobs, many work more than one job. What they need is more money, not youth rates and crap wages under$10 an hour.
But no, lets have More Investment and hello one day in the faaaaaaaaaar away future cool stuff will trickle down through the cracks in Theresea Gattings floorboards( except there arn't any. gaps there.)

I think Mathew had you sussed mister Guava.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Nice theory man. Unlike working or unemployed people business can and will pass on any costs
but we won't spoil a good yarn by raising THAT will we.

If your really so worried about the cost of water to poor people why not make it free to everyone earning less than ten grand a year or something like that.

What do you reckon about that idea Bryan?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Poor people use water too and should pay for what they use - just like electricity.

If you want to help the poor, help them to get jobs. Remove barriers to employment, reform welfare and education, and lower taxes so businesses can invest.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Fiddle - water is not and never has been free. If you want to collect, store and reticulate a clean, constant supply of water there is a cost.

Currently the cost of water is built into the tax we pay for local government which is based on the value of property rather than the amount used. The lack of clear pricing signals means many users waste water.

Privatisation would send clear price signals about water, reduce waste and reduce costs for low income people who are relatively small users of water. The poor shouldn't be subsidising large scale users through a system based on the value of their homes.

Privatisation would allow local govt to focus on its proper role which includes the provision of genuine public goods.

And please, no more fantasy about American golf courses. Switch your default channel from the Michael Moore setting.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Have you run this past Bryan? Or is he still out on his Ducati?

Perhaps people on less than $10K a year should get free Ducatis. It's unfair only the rich can afford them. A Ducati can boost your self-esteem and provide long term health benefits. In fact failure to provide free Ducatis is tantamount to an early death sentence for low income people.

Get onto it Fiddle (as long as Bryan approves).
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I think on ballance free water would probably be better than free Ducati's but I'll leave you with that one, I hear a rumour going round that there's life outside this thread.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Maybe. See ya.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Whew.

Now after all that interesting philosophy, can someone in the Alliance tell us what's their next step in the anti water privatisation campaign?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Notice how Shea never listed what he/she thinks constitute social goods.
Water, roads, street lighting, public libraries, clean air - they're all up for grabs by the profiteers, like Halliburton in Iraq.
Business is war by another means.
Shea's numerous comments can be summed up as:
F*CK THE POOR
RAPE THE EARTH if there's money to be made
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I don't carry any torch for Shea, but I don't think that last post is a fair representation of her views.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I'm back again. Just spent the weekend in Darfur spreading death, mayhem and free market ideas.

Tolstoy, I didn't list social goods because I didn't speak about them apart from asking Don to provide a definition.

I said part of the proper role of government is to provide public goods (or commodities). One definition of public goods is things the market can't or won't supply.

With a genuine public commodity (good)
- you can't exclude non-payers from access to the commodity, and
- consumption of the commodity by one person doesn't reduce the amount available to the next person.

Therefore, are the following public goods?
water - no
roads - no
street lighting - yes (some even provided privately)
public libraries - no (some libraries are already private)
clean air - yes

Tolstoy - can you define a social good?

Fiddle - thanks for being fair.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I'm not mad about having government supply water 'cos they do a lousy job of it. However, in the present situation I'd much prefer thae council than hae a private monopoly run it.

What makes water special is two things: 1. It's a necessity that you can't just refuse to buy if you choose; 2. reticulated water is a natural monopoly. We are not going to get an idealised market situation where competing companies drive the price down, and we've seen the result of attempts to use regulation to force competition in natural monopolies - more bureaucracy, artificial barriers between companies and lousy service with high prices.

What are the pluses of privatising water? Those presented seem to be philosophical rather than practical.

Apparently people waste it if it isn't priced - but unless you make it ridiculously expensive, rich people will waste it anyway (and if you charge per unit, companies have an incentive to get people to use more). How about making the first 250l/day (which is plenty for anyone) cheap and slapping high prices on anything above that?

As for giving government more time to do the other things people think it should be doing, what are they? Supplying water seems as good as anything and far more useful than much of what the government does.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Who decided that the proper role of government is to supply goods that the market can't/won't supply?

When did we have that debate? Isn't the role of government to do what citizens want it to do? If not, why not?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

So Sam, if the WCC decides to privatise water, and this Labour government moves to do the same you'll be happy?

After all they're elected.

Please get a consistent line on this. The left were jumping up and down about the policies of the 4th Labour govt and the subsequent Nat govt but now you're presenting govt as the embodiment of the will of the people. Which is it going to be?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

First, Shea, I couldn't care less what 'the left' (whoever they are) was saying about previous governments - I'm not accountable to some mythic formulation of a body of opinion.

Second, there is no inconsistency - I said the proper role of government was to do what people wanted, not that this has happened in practice (it hasn't).

Actually, I very much doubt that current public opinion would back the privatisation of water.

And anyway, 'the left' or anybody else has every right to jump up and down about policies they don't like, as does anybody else. What isn't acceptable is demanding that government follows a particular line regardless of the wishes of citizens, which is what you seem to be suggesting when you claim that only certain things are the 'proper' role of government.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

First, Shea, I couldn't care less what 'the left' (whoever they are) was saying about previous governments - I'm not accountable to some mythic formulation of a body of opinion.

Second, there is no inconsistency - I said the proper role of government was to do what people wanted, not that this has happened in practice (it hasn't).

Actually, I very much doubt that current public opinion would back the privatisation of water.

And anyway, 'the left' or anybody else has every right to jump up and down about policies they don't like, as does anybody else. What isn't acceptable is demanding that government follows a particular line regardless of the wishes of citizens, which is what you seem to be suggesting when you claim that only certain things are the 'proper' role of government.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Do you believe there is a proper role for government? If so, what is it?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

stuff the government! they will never 'do what the people want'!
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

The role of the government is to oppress and mystify ( bullshit )the people it leeches off and the agenda for today , tomorrow ansd untill we get down with this is
HARD ON > NO CRAP NO WISSING AROUND TOTAL UNCOPROMISING OPPOFUCKINSTION TO THE GOVERERMENT.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

I think the best form of society is one without government, organised by the free association of democratic communities, i.e. anarchism.

While government exists (or in other words, untill we've convinced everybody to do without it), I consider it should be held to its own claimed principles - that is, to carry out the wishes of the people it represents. I don't think it is going to do this in many cases, but I see no reason to allow it get away with whatever stupidities it chooses.

So I'm saying that, where it exists, the role of government is to do what citizens want. Do you disagree with this?
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Sam, I think you misconstrue the nature of government.

'Government' per se does not represent anyone. Its job is to govern the country. At the moment Labour controls the government and implements its policies through that control. But the Labour government doesn't represent all New Zealanders. For example, how could you argue that a Labour government represents all the people who voted National?

Viewed in this way government doesn't do what all citizens want, it does what a majority of citizens want. Quite a different thing.

Given that we have a majority-based system we need to place limits on the role of government to prevent the tyranny of the majority. Eg you could probably drum up 51% voter support for something like the death penalty. Would you be ok with that?

These limits shape the role of government. Fundamental to this is having a clear idea about which goods government should and shouldn't provide.

I'm still waiting for a definition of social goods.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

OK fair enough, I'm being a bit simplistic - but I'm not inclined to sketch out an entire philosophy of government here. I do think that a government action that has a clear mandate is different to one in which there is clearly no mandate.

For example, if a government decides to privatise water against the wishes of 75% of its citizens, that is a very different thing to a government privatising water when 75% of its citizens support such a move.

As for the question "who should supply what goods", I think this is one which changes with circumstances. It's a practical question rather than a philisophical one. Usually my answer would be "a workers collective accountable to the community it serves". When the political circumstances make this impossible (as in the question under discussion), the question becomes "what is the best available option?" I see no reason to make "the market" the default option. A fairly heavily regulated market seems to do a good job of offering me lunch options, for example, but it did a lousy job of running the railway system and seems hopeless at public transport generally.

Personally, I haven't a clue what "social goods" are either.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Sam if it's "a practical question rather than a philisophical one" and if it's a question of "what is the best available option?" then the international evidence is overwhelming that the market wins hands down. On average and over time, privatised companies outperform state-owned ones.

Market provision has a number of advantages over public: profit is the great incentive; success depends on serving customers; competition drives ongoing improvement; and the poor provider is not insulated by subsidies.

This is not simply theory. The collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest object lesson in the failure of socialism. Ever see a Russian supermarket?

But I believe there is a role for government. In the vast majority of cases it doesn't include the provision of private (as opposed to public) goods. One simple reason is that govt usually does an inferior job of providing private goods.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

That depends on what you mean by "out perform" there are a number of ways of rating performance and it isn't as clear as you suggest. Take the example of the NZ railways - asset stripped and run down to the point that the state had to step in. Now we are being told that Wellington's trolley bus system might has to go as its suffering from years of being under maintained. Here the profit incentive was being pursued, but not to customers advantage. You could also check out Britain's rail system as an example of privatisation failing to improve service. When I was living there, the newspapers were reporting that cuts to spending on maintainance meant the system ran far fewer and slower trains than in 1950 when it was run by government and locos were powerered by steam. As for competition - how to you propose a competitive supply of reticulated water? in the present miserable system, there may be a place for the market, but essential serices that tend towards a natural monopoly are not one of them.

As for the poor old Russians, socialism was a disaster for them, but capitalism isn't doing much better. I never did see a Soviet supermarket, but I've seen how some people in Russia get their goods nowadays - purchasing Chinese imports at railway stations in a mad panic while a train halts for a few minutes. The vendors being travellers and railway employees (plus police) hauling goods on passenger trains. This doesn't seem a great step forward in customer service.

Oh, and thanks to "True anarchist" for keeping up the tradition of reducing IndyMedia debates to infantile sloganising. If your opposition to government is "uncompromising" how have you managed to stay out of prison? I'm deeply impressed.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Sam, it's no use arguing with a free-market evangelist who worships theory so zealously that she/he can ignore the free market disasters you've described.
Another example: I've yet to see the free market provide us with clean air or water, as opposed to air and water pollution, unless regulations are enforced.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

And history will show that the collapse of the Soviet Union put the spotlight back on capitalism as the second worst way to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number of people. (A goal that none of our politicians or Shea seem interested in.)
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Citing the collapse of the Soviet Union as evidence for the brilliance of the free-market is like praising the aerial grace of a goat after it has beaten a camel in a high-diving contest.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

It's not just theory.

I'm referring to a Journal of Economic Literature (JEL) survey which looked at 48 studies of privatisation.

- Of the 10 studies examining efficiencies in the same industry, 8 found private sector firms performed better, 2 found no significant difference. None found the public sector was more efficient.

- Of the 22 studies that examined the effects of privatisation in developed countries, all but one found privatisation was associated with improvements in operating and financial performance.

- of the 16 different studies of the effects of privatisation in transition economies, the studies showed consistent and significant evidence that private ownership was associated with better firm performance than was the case with continued state ownership.

The findings of the JEL survey were paralleled by the findings of OECD and World Bank surveys on privatisation.

This takes us back to the start of the thread where Bertram said the evidence showed benefits of privatisation while Don et al relied on anecdotes.

Quickly, I think it's possible nobody can make rail work well. It's C19th technology which is no longer competitive.

And privatisation in the former Soviet Union took place in a period of extreme political turbulence; property rights were weak; markets were poorly regulated; and the privatisation process itself was often corrupt.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Once again I ask - what do you mean by"out-perform"?

Railways can't work? Have you ever been in Japan, or most of Western Europe? Check out the brilliant local services in Paris or Bilbao, there's even some pretty good efforts in developing countries such as Iran. The Moscow metro is masterpiece, too.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

"This takes us back to the start of the thread where Bertram said the evidence showed benefits of privatisation while Don et al relied on anecdotes."

That is a misrepresentation. I reported Bertram's actions at the meeting; he waved a big thick study around, claimed it was hard to read and that it proved the case for privatisation. He then triumphantly dumped his 'proof' down and went on to slate all internet evidence to the contrary as 'the battle of the anecdotes'.

Your formulation "performed better" is similarly vague. In modern management speak that expression invariably means greater profit for those at the top.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Jello Biafra had a better handle on things than JEL.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

The trouble with a free market economy is that it requires so many policemen to make it work.
Not to mention slaves, low-waged or unwaged.
 

Re: User-pays for water in Wellington

Personally I am opposed to privatising water.

The market is not an appropriate mechanism to supply water because water suppliers are monopolies and water is essential for human survival (you could say it has very low elasticity of demand).

Privatising water essentially transfers a monopoly from public hands to private hands. There is only one supplier - in Auckland at least, I assume Wellington is the same. So competition does not exist.

So the 'success depends on serving customers' argument doesn’t really apply to a monopoly. As it assumes if you don’t serve customers they will stop buying your product and buy something else.

A corporation will by its nature maximise profit. It has no choice. When it owns a valuable resource it will set prices at the most profitable level.

So it stands to reason corporations when they own water will increase the price. As seen in Auckland and around the world.

It has been seen around the world that companies when in control of water, increase prices. So privatisation disproportionately affects low income households. Especially since the water they use is much more likely to be used for essentials (drinking, cooking, cleaning etc). In exactly the same way a flat tax is.

It is important to remember that low income households aren't all unemployed slackers. A lot of them are elderly people who have no means of increasing their income. As seen in the Auckland water pressure group (a lot of their members are elderly).

I am sure the Journal Shea refers to is accurate. Privatised water firms do perform much better than state owned, but only - as has been pointed out - if you are talking about profitability. Which is what the three bullet points from the journal article refer to.

At least when water is council owned the council is somewhat responsible to the community that elects it. A corporation is only accountability to its shareholders who are expecting profit.

So selling a human need to a profit driven corporation is morally wrong in my view.

Is privatisation beneficial - absolutely, the question is to who?
 

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