A rather simplistic and slightly cheesy way of explaing the organisational technique of Fedrealism. I'm aware of its generalisations, but it was written for those completely unfimiliar with the idea. Cheers.
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With elections around the corner, various parties and their members will be out seeking your vote, your support, or at least your attention. “It’s the time for you to have a say in how the country is run”, as the adverts say. You might also hear a rather different message from some corners, namely ‘anarchist’ ones. Not only do they say “don’t vote”, but they follow it up with “organise!” So what does that actually mean? If voting is the only way to have your say, why would anarchists question it? And what does the vague cry of ‘organise’ entail? While there are many reasons why anarchists think voting and parliamentary representation is a bankrupt way of directly looking after our many needs and wants — and advocate alternatives that would truly involve everyone in ‘having a say’ — these debates are not the main focus of this wee text (those arguments can be found at my website, or a more in-depth analysis check out
www.anarchistfaq.org). What I want to try and illustrate here is the ‘organise’ part of the critique — the ways of doing things anarchists refer to as direct action, self-management, direct democracy, and importantly, the idea of federalism. To do this, I’m going to thrash a particular analogy to the extreme. So, let’s go shopping!
Things like politics, political parties, and our system of parliamentary democracy all rely on ‘representation’. Politicians are meant to represent us and our interests, and in exchange, we give them the power to make decisions that we think will benefit us — in short, to govern us. We do this because we are led to believe that this is the most logical and efficient way of doing things. This means the power to make laws, to regulate and control society, are in the hands of those in power (politicians), and are binding on you and me. Because we agree to pass on these responsibilities (or let those above us handle it), we advocate a system of hierarchy — a pyramid-like structure with a few at the top, and the rest of us at various levels below. If those at the top don’t do a good job, we are
allowed the right to replace those politicians who failed to meet our needs, by voting in another bunch of people at the top every three years. This is a very basic run down of things, but it will do for here.
For anarchists, it is this very kind of hierarchy and imbalance of power that causes most of the problems in today’s world, because it means some people (politicians, corporations, or countries), have more power, more say, and more control than others. This leads to things like greed, divisions, and poverty — people being exploited by those with power, whether it be economic, social or political. Anarchists propose that a better way to do things would be to ensure that no one has more power than another, that everyone was equal and had an equal say in their direct affairs, and that together we should decide how we work, how we live, and how we relate to each other. “Anarchism is a theory for social change based on the essential belief that no person has the right to have power over another person. When you accept the notion that every person has their own personal freedom, it becomes clear that our present social structure does not allow people equal footing. It does not allow us control over our own lives.” So, how do anarchists think this could be changed? And how do they think that ‘bigger’ tasks such as ‘running a country’ could be done, without falling back into structures of unequal power, control and hierarchy? How do you ensure all decisions are made fairly, democratically, and directly, in all aspects of life — local, national and international? One way, they reply, is the idea of horizontal forms of decision making connected with everyone involved — a process which is integrated with a system known as Federalism.
Far from advocating chaos, anarchists are strong believers in organisation — in particular, ways of organising that are as non-exploitative as possible. Anarchists don’t just wont to flip the ‘pyramid’ upside down, so the bottom becomes the top and the top becomes the bottom — they would rather do away with the pyramid all together! Instead, horizontal and equal forms of decision making would replace it, making the most out of non-hierarchal systems that would function — not up or down — but from the outside edges-in, from the periphial to the centre. Sound weird? In fact, we do this in some aspects of our lives already. Take, for example, the weekly task of going grocery shopping for the house or flat. A few of the flatmates are entrusted with carrying out the task of getting the groceries agreed to earlier by the whole flat (the dreaded shopping list), and it’s then their job to administrate (or do) the tasks set out (the shopping). We expect them to stick to the list we all agreed on, and this would make sense, because they helped create it too. They are part of the group and the decision making process, so to change it effects them also. They might come back from the shopping with suggestions on how to do it better next time, but these are only suggestions, to discuss together as a group. The key here is the nature of power and representation. The ‘delagates’ of the task put forward by everyone (in this case, the grocery shopping) are temporary, administrative (doing) in nature, and do not have any power to make binding or final decisions. If they really sucked at the shopping, and spent all the flat money on booze and chips (not bad, some might say), then obviously the next time around the group would decide on different delegates to have a go. In fact, we all know the task of getting groceries swaps around, as it’s fairer that way. Anarchists say, why not take this kind of logical system further, and apply it our wider, bigger tasks? They point out the key aspects of this system (federalism) of being the fluid and temporary nature of delegation, the delegates to be direct involved in and from the group, the equal balance of power and decision making, and the non-existence of an exploitative hierarchy. It is in this way, through the unique and organic process of federation, that the direct democracy and self-management of ‘the shopping’, (the community, our workplaces, and industry) takes place — meaning everyone can have the maximum input in what directly effects you. When this process joins together with other groups doing the very same thing, federalism on a larger scale takes place, following the same structures, and the same principles.
Still not sure if this is a better way of doing things? Lets bash this shopping analogy out even further, and see how ‘shopping’ would take place under the current system of ‘representation’. The people who you ‘elected’ to go shopping — and who promised they would ‘stick to the list’ — have decided to not only stay and live at the supermarket, but try and control everything else about the flat from there too. They try to make sure you’ve got the right groceries from where they are, as they say it’s more efficient than making trips back and forth. So, the flat trusts that those in the supermarket will somehow know what the flat needs each changing week, from a position seprate and removed from the flat. If they start to get it wrong, and become completely out of touch with the flatmate’s and their various needs, then all you can do is wait three years to vote in another group — who, funnily enough, also happen to live at the supermarket! And finally, if you decide to go out and actually do the shopping yourself, and at a different supermarket, they send out the trolley boy’s after you!
Sound familiar? The analogy is terribly cheesy (as is this pun), but when it comes down to it, it’s sadly accurate. The representative system is far from efficient — in fact, its corrupt, illogical, and completely divorced from our everyday lives. That’s why anarchists advocate direct action, direct participation, and a system of inclusive, equal, federalism. That’s what it means when they say, “don’t vote — organise!”
Comments
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
"sure dont vote and end up with National"
The same old negitive reasons for voting. I prefer to do somethings because I see change and something positive. You see it as vote vote and hope.
Have the guts to make changes by working with and in your own community. And I suggest some look up the word community. Have some courage. Work for change dont ask others to change it for you. They dont and they wont.
And it is not about Labour and National it is about a totaly corrupt system.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
I could go on — about the fact that you dismiss the workers ability to themselves bring about social change, or how you also ignore that fact that the prerequisite to freedom is freedom itself, not blind following of those promising 'freedom' —but I really can't be bothered.
You can lobby for your votes, and we will continue to work with, and encourage, workers to direct emancipate themselves, not to vote in new bosses.
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
At the same time we must do our best to organise in the work place, school and community to create a system that actually fulfils the needs and aspirations of the World's people. Voting and organising for a World where workers take control of the economy are not mutually exclusive.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Because voting, in it's very nature, is contradictory to anarchism, an individualistic act diametrically oppsoed to collective action and community building. There is nothing more isolated, atomised and individualistic than voting. It is the act of one person in a box by themselves. It is the total opposite of collective struggle. It also does nothing more than continue the trend hierarchy, of passing on problems to someone else, again, diametrically opposed to direct action.
The idea that socialists standing for elections somehow prepares working class people for revolution is simply wrong. Utilising the state, standing in elections, only prepares people for following leaders -- it does not encourage the self-activity, self-organisation, direct action and mass struggle required for a social revolution. Moreover, the use of elections has a corrupting effect on those who use it. The history of radicals using elections has been a long one of betrayal and the transformation of revolutionary parties into reformist ones (including Greens, Worker's Parties etc etc). Thus using the existing state ensures that the division at the heart of existing society (namely a few who govern and the many who obey) is reproduced in the movements trying to abolish it. It boils down to handing effective leadership to "leaders," just when the situation requires working people to solve their own problems and take matters into their own hands.
Only the struggle for freedom (or freedom itself) can be the school for freedom, and by placing power into the hands of leaders, utilising the existing state ensures that socialism is postponed rather than prepared for.
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Cheers
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
People are free to believe in who and what they choose (including God or their country), as long as that does not infringe on my personal freedom. We'd like to point out the problems with that, but we won't shove it down their throats via 'the party line' or some dated, rigid, dogmatic theory for political change (ie Marxism). Your picture of the bomb-throwing, black-hooded anarchism is straight from the mainstream media and Marxist slurs, and simply off.
We tend to judge actions, and the actions of some past revolutions have shown them to be failures. They didn't just not 'measure' up to our so-called anarchist 'heavens', but they have done nothing more for the opressed than bring about (much needed, but not enough) reforms. If trying to improve opression beyond shorter hours and having a weekend is being 'pure' and 'not of this world', then what's the point?
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Might as well have said "vote and end up with National". Realistically, that's the "choice" you have this time.
The party in power gets hit when things turn bad (already there is talk of Landslide Rudd being in for only one term in Oz).
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Everything in this imperfect world falls short of the glittering image of the afterworld they have in their heads. In the same way you have this picture of an ideal world and an ideal inhabitant of that world and you judge the real world by it. Inevitably the real world comes up badly. You write:
'they [ie real-life revolutions] have done nothing more for the opressed than bring about (much needed, but not enough) reforms'
But what's your definition of reforms? Basically, every positive measure that falls short of your impossible ideal. Revolutions and non-revolutionary mass movements led by non-anarchists and dominated by non-anarchist ideologies has resulted in the abolition of slavery, national independence, a living wage, equal rights for women, land reform so that people in the countryside don't starve, and so on - there are thousands of positives I could list. But you think less about these things that what the revolutions/mass movements haven't achieved. You're always looking at the bottle and seeing it half empty rather than half full. And ordinary people just don't relate to your thinking, because they don't think in the same way as you. I remember anarchists in NZ handing out leaflets decades ago saying the same stuff as you. They went in the bin. People went on voting. They'll go on voting. Cam has a more workable approach, though you have a more beautiful vision.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
When have I dismissed this? Where have I said that anarchism is the only thing that has achived anything?
"But you think less about these things that what the revolutions/mass movements haven't achieved. You're always looking at the bottle and seeing it half empty rather than half full. And ordinary people just don't relate to your thinking, because they don't think in the same way as you."
And 'ordinary' people go around calling each other comrade? Your assumptions of the mindset of every anarchist on the planet is staggering!
To dismiss the anarchist influence in past mass movements is to dismiss key characteristics of communal struggle, direct action, wildcat strikes etc etc, characteristics shown by 'ordinary' people, and by anarchism as a whole.
My personal (take note, PERSONAL) view of the definition of reform — while completely crucial to social change and emancipation, and for ordinary people to take measure of their collective power — is something that fails to challenge the on-going existance of Capitalism. So while we must struggle for reforms —again, in order to gain awareness of our collective power — they should not become the aim, and any progress will only be reforms while any kind of opressive, expoitative system remains in place. Far from dismissing mass movements, anarchists embrace and encourage them — we just wouldn't be quick to embrace their 'leaders'.
I'm sorry to say it, but the only one 'up in the clouds' here is yourself, by thinking that our ideas are in the bin. History and 'ordinary people' trashed Marxism, Leninism, Trotskysim and other systems a long time ago. With the growing anti-globilisation movement, de-centarlised indigenous struggle, and other movements, anarchism is alive and well.
Cheers!
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
So, you're saying that the world isn't imperfect. That it's ok as it is? If it's not, then what would you advocate instead? You've had a great time trying to swing the debate away from the issue of voting, so, what would you suggest?
Why do you think anarchists start to build the communal situations for post-revolution here and now? Why do you think we advocate self-management and autonomy, by everyone, not just in the 'party'? Because these ideas are a far off heaven or ideal like you say? Or because, like I've now said three times, that freedom is the prerequsite for freedom — things anyone can start to explore and build on now, before, during, and after the 'revolution'.
Maybe instead, lets just vote, and worry about the 'imperfections' later?
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
The percentage of people voting has been steadily dropping in Western "representative democracies" for some time now, along with political party membership. Probably because they are realising that voting changes nothing, and major world events like the Iraq invasion and globalisation have been foisted on us in a totally undemocratic way.
Politicians rule by cynical "divide and conquer" methods and don't represent anyone except themselves and their parties, which have a total membership in Aotearoa of less than 40,000.
"Representative democracy" is a con trick. People can sort things out for themselves locally, and will have to when the coming crisis of capital and energy shows our "leaders" to be utterly bankrupt of solutions.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Small businesses run by redneck mum and dad kiwi diggers - the alternative to K-mart.
Wife beating - the alternative to rape.
Ultraleft posturing - the alternative to class struggle.
Stinky vegetarians - the alternative to george bush.
Vomiting - the alternative to trolling useless discussion topics.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Which ones? Turnout was up in the last US and UK elections, and also in the last NZ election. Obama has brought tens of millions of new people into electoral politics. There's so much wishful thinking amongst some of you people - I heard this sort of thing from anarchists and also communists decades ago. I have been hearing that workers don't support Labour any more ever since the 1980s. Who keeps electig them, then? And why are these huge numbers of people supposedly turning against the system never on demonstrations and joining anarchists and similar groups? I'm not meaning to be sarcastic, just wondering whether you people are fooling yourselves.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
'There is nothing more isolated, atomised and individualistic than voting. It is the act of one person in a box by themselves.'
I thought this was weird because it seemed to be saying that secret ballots were always bad. I voted in a secret ballot in an election for my union branch. Was I 'isolated, atomised, and individualistic' when I did this? Bullshit. I was having my say about policy. And I prefer secret ballot to open voting.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
I think this is a bit harsh. I don't think Jared is recommending people be excommunicated from the One True Church of anarchism. He is just arguing for an anarchist standpoint. However, in saying this, i think there is a judgmental christian idealist streak in anarchism, and some of your criticisms are spot on.
"Who are you to tell us that we're on the wrong track because we don't follow you party line of not voting? I think people are sick of being lectured to by peope who subscribe to -isms they have gotten out of books."
I think one of the biggest problems on the left in NZ is that it is anti-intellectual, anti-theory and anti-reflection. Your comments here smack of this. I do take your point that people don't like being lectured to. But we need free, open, honest and critical debate also -- to combine thought with action, reflection with doing. you can't have one without the other.
I don't think NZers do this very well -- if you criticise someone's ideas, the reaction you generally get is to ignore you, walk away or shut you up by saying something like "who are ya to dare to criticise me?"
"But all I've seen over three decades on the left in NZ is handfuls of people in funny clothes giving out leaflets which go straight in the bin. Has there ever been an anarchist (or for that matter Leninist) group with more than 50 members in this country?"
Yes, the Communist Party of New Zealand had 2000 members after WW11. The CPNZ retained had a membership of 300-400 in the 1960s. Other parties that had more than 50 members were the Stalinist SUP and the Trot SAL. The Maoist WCL prob did too.
Socialist Worker in its heyday prob had more than 50 members too.
Not to mention the syndicalist movement which had thousands of members in its unions preWW1 and after WWI too. The major union federation in NZ -- the Red feds -- went syndicalist for a while. Not to mention the alliance of labour in the late 1910s and early 1920s.
I think you're freezing the current low period of class struggle, and then looking at history from this idealist lense. Meaning, in times of intense class struggle and radical social protest, many working class people in NZ will look towards radical parties, unions, anarchist groups, and so on. eg. pre WW1; immediately after WW11; late 60s early 70s etc.
The mistake I think you make is to assume that the current state of affairs (low level of struggle, working class defeat, and hence workers rejecting revolutionary politics and seeing them as useless) is permanent.
cheers Toby
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
But I am not pessimistic at all. Unlike the religiously inclined, I don't judge reality against some impossible standard. I think there have been positive gains in the last few years, and they have come through a mixture of means, including pressure on elected representatives. Maori TV and Paid Parental Leave are good examples. These were major achievements won by action inside and outside parliament. However some anarchists want to tell us that pushing for improvements using a mixture of electoral and street politics is heresy. Well, let us see what you have achieved in the last few years. All of these references to the IWW and Spain a million years ago are ridiculous. Show me the movement you have in NZ and show me something you have achieved, if you want the right to write off other trends on the left that don't share your taboos.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
There's an incredible amount of grassroots organising happening here in Aotearoa which goes under the radar of the traditional left — don't assume because there's no formal anarchist party that nothing is happening. The recent Anarchist Hui's (Anarcha-Feminist, Christian Anarchist), the Auckland Anarchist Network, The October 15th Solidarity Groups and various Social Centres and Infoshops, local indigenous groups, individuals within unions and union projects, the odd writer and historian, growing community gardens, seed exchanges and co-ops, radical anarchist crafsters (go Addington Womens Revolutionary Craft Circle!) and everyday people — are examples of anarchist ideas in local practice. While these groups aren't really federated into a network as such, it's something that looks set to change, and attempts to do this have recently taken place.
I recognise that in the low period of class struggle, it makes it hard to identify strong, anarchist or anarcho-syndicalist movements here in NZ, and anarchist tend to concentrate on community building — but growth of the CNT abroad gives me hope of something similar here. And don't dismiss the radical potential of creating dual power structures that totally reject the state such as the ones above, as deconstructing our own lives and relationships go hand in hand with total social change.
So, in short, far from dismissing what other groups are doing or have done, I'm interested in shedding light on (what I think) may be more viable and inclusive ways of operating. This might ruffle the feathers of some, and so be it, that's something I can deal with.
Oh, just an end note — how many members does it take to constitue a 'mass movement'? As a poster above mentioned, a slim number of people actually represent party numbers, so I'm interested. Also, counldn't one argue that democracy, marxism, or any kind of 'ism' is essentially 'foreign' to NZ in terms of their origins? For me, it seems of all of the isms, anarchism is one which can be worked and re-worked locally the most effectively. That's just my opinion!
Also, for a bit of a background on revolutionary socialism in NZ, check out these links and books. Cheers!
Industrial Unionism in Aotearoa
katipo.net.nz/product_info.php/cPath/48/products_id/320
Rabble Rousers and Merry Pranksters
katipo.net.nz/product_info.php/cPath/48/products_id/317
The Red-Feds by Erik Olssen
(it's out of print, but you can find it at libraries)
Against Freedom
katipo.net.nz/product_info.php/cPath/48/products_id/316
Revolution!
www.tuhp.org.nz/books
Trouble Makers!
www.takver.com/history/nz/tm/index.htm
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
It's not a big amount of expended energy or time for me, and I am not investing any huge hope in the act of voting, nor in any party that comes out on top.
I speak out against the system of the state and all forms or dominance and heirarchy, I try to commit myself to building an alternative, healthy culture that challenges heirarchy at every turn - building a society rather than merely a movement.
I ultimately don't think my vote counts - but if it did, I'd rather be struggling under and against a government with one fewer national seat and one more green seat, and it's just not much out of my day to go tick a box. Although maybe I could spend that hour planting an extra tree, or reading some more theory, but maybe I won't.
And if you disagree - that is ok, you can disagree - don't vote, and feel free to explain why you don't vote for those who may be interested - but I don't think we need to create further rifts between those who desire liberation from domination by getting at each others throats over it.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Admittedly I have not read all the replies to this post. But I want to say, as a student, a beneficiary, and a father on the DPB, that in my IMMEDIATE life it DOES make a difference what party wins the election. If National win, my benefit will be cut, my student debt will increase as taxes will be reimposed (just watch), etc etc. If Labour wins, then none of these things will happen. (well less likely to at least for now)
Capitalism is the central problem in our globalised world. I believe that governments dictate this system to peoples around the world via de-centralised councils, counties, provinces etc. But we all know this.
In my immediate individual life I will vote this year because only I get the benefit, only I am responisble for my student debt. So if my vote counts - and it does - then i'd really like to see in all realistic terms, Labour win - not National. I'll vote for the greens or workers party though.
I could quiet easily not vote and make a stand with all my so-called comrades - but really thats what the right-wing politicians want. Becuase basically if we all don't vote its really like voting for national (i.e if we did vote it certainly wouldn't be for them).
Basically - if my benefit is cut, frankly I don't expect any anarchists to help me out. I'd rather take money from the government. I really don't think that not voting is going to solve any of the wider issues in the world, nor will voting. But the smaller things like benefit cuts that effect us TODAY, well... we should really vote against national.
Cheers
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
What I don't agree with is the argument that the right wants us not to vote, and that we should vote in a lesser evil. Here's why:
What this forgets is that the lesser evil is still an evil. What happens is that instead of the greater evil attacking us, we get the lesser evil doing what the right-wing was going to do. And, since we are discussing the "lesser evil," let us not forget it was the "lesser evil" of the Democrats (in the USA) and Labour (in the UK) who introduced the monetarist and other policies that Reagan and Thatcher made their own (and we may add that the US Air Traffic Controllers union endorsed Reagan against Carter in 1980 because they thought they would get a better deal out of the Republicans. Reagan then went on to bust the union once in office). Simply put, we cannot expect a different group of politicians to react differently to the same economic and political pressures and influences.
So, voting for other politicians will make little difference. The reality is that politicians are puppets. Real power in the state does not lie with politicians, but instead within the state bureaucracy and big business. Faced with these powers, we have seen left-wing governments from Spain to New Zealand introduce right-wing policies. So even if we elected a radical party, or even the lesser evil, they would be powerless to change anything important and soon be forced to attack us in the interests of capitalism. Politicians come and go, but the state bureaucracy and big business remain forever!
Therefore we cannot rely on voting for the lesser evil to safe us from the possible dangers of a right-wing election victory brought about by abstentionism. All we can hope for is that no matter who gets in, the population will resist the government because it knows and can use its real power - direct action. For the "only limit to the oppression of government is the power with which the people show themselves capable of opposing it." [Errico Malatesta, Life and Ideas, p. 196]—from www.anarchistfaq.org.
Of course, the relative size of anarchist thought in NZ at the moment is far from ideal, that is why we could be using the upcoming election to raise more awareness.
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
'Therefore we cannot rely on voting for the lesser evil to safe us from the possible dangers of a right-wing election victory brought about by abstentionism. All we can hope for is that no matter who gets in, the population will resist the government because it knows and can use its real power - direct action. For the "only limit to the oppression of government is the power with which the people show themselves capable of opposing it." [Errico Malatesta, Life and Ideas, p. 196]—from www.anarchistfaq.org.
Of course, the relative size of anarchist thought in NZ at the moment is far from ideal, that is why we could be using the upcoming election to raise more awareness.'
In the first bit you quote some anarchist theorist who's been dead for decades and probably never knew NZ existed. It's all very stirring and I'm sure the picture of a mighty proletariat fighting back gives you goosebumps. Then in the second paragraph you come back down to earth and realise that actually what you've quoted means nothing at all in the present context in NZ. And you think the priority at this election is to raise awareness about anarchist theory?! I can just see you doorknocking with your anarchist Bibles and leaflets.
Why don't you discuss someone who has actually lived in NZ and studied our society? Why don't you talk about a single issue people are vting over this election? Do you how the Working for Families policy works? Do you know the differences between the employment relations laws National had in the '90s and what we have now? Do you know what the GDP and budget was last year? You are obviously sincere in your beliefs, but I just wonder how much more useful it would be if you took you head out of those dusty old books of anarchist legends and applied yourself to discussing NZ realities. It might give you a better idea of why so many people are intending to vote again, and why so many of us are so scared of a national win.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Maori, who have the strongest social structure in Aotearoa, therefore the best chance to create real radical social change (not just a movement). Maori, who make up the largest proportion of under and lower class people in this country, therefore the most likely to make radical socio-economic change.
Maori, who have the longest and strongest link with this whenua, therefore the most likely to give a shit about it being fucked over.
I'm pretty sure I won't vote for the Maori Party (or any others) but I'm pretty interested in working with them in other ways, as a group of political change-makers representing their people rather than your average ego-centric government politicians. The line is thin though, don't let me kid you.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
There are heaps of alternatives we can work on while the benefit and student allowances last (I can't imagine Labour OR National will be keeping them for long) so that when we do lose them, we'll still be able to stand, stand even stronger.
For example:
- collectivised gear, tools etc
- free boxes
- clotheswaps and non-profit/fundraiser opshops
- barter and trade
- community gardens and guerilla gardens
- free schools
- squatting and housing collectives
- recycling bikes, hitching and carpooling
- dumpstering and pot-lucks
- co-op childcare/parent support groups
- etc etc etc
Besides benefits are a tool to keep wages low and make shit jobs no longer seem like the slavery they actually are.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
This is like the Labour Cabinet introducing uni fees when they had a relatively free education. Except they didnt call it anarchism they called it user pays.
Is it any wonder that anarchism strikes people as at best idealistic and at worse hypocrisy?
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Anonymous — I sign all my posts, so I'm not sure why you've singled me out here.
"In the first bit you quote some anarchist theorist who's been dead for decades and probably never knew NZ existed. It's all very stirring and I'm sure the picture of a mighty proletariat fighting back gives you goosebumps. Then in the second paragraph you come back down to earth and realise that actually what you've quoted means nothing at all in the present context in NZ. And you think the priority at this election is to raise awareness about anarchist theory?!"
You have a great way of twisting words. You seem to think that by me admitting realities of numbers it somehow dismisses my argument — far from it. The quote still applies, as does the argument about the lesser evil, even more so for our current context. Due to these realities, the elections — due to raised poltical awareness — is a perfect time to DISCUSS alternatives, and is definitly up there (in my mind) as being a priority.
You confuse not discussing single issues as some kind of flaw compared with other parties — but here's the thing: single issues, whether it's Working For Families etc etc all make up the connected systems of domination and exploitation we are interested in challenging, so concentrating on single issues could be considered fruitless. No one is saying to ignore those issues, but to take into acount their larger implications, which, relates back to the state, political parties, and voting.
As for your other arguments (which, since they are directed at me, and not the text presented above), well, what can I say? Maybe by putting out my name here and trying to encourage debate warrants the kind of personal political floundering found in parliament you seem to revert too (which, funnily enough, tend to divert attention away from the issues at hand), but I don't even now who you are? So, I'm going to try and stick to the points you have made.
You completely dismiss the internationalist aspect of any kind of radical left ideas every time you harp on about finding NZ examples of literature or analysis. While there is, this argument implicates that Marxism, or even our concepts of Voting and Democracy, should be considered void because they were written by dead men hundreds of years ago?
Or, maybe I should repeat the entire quote you've used, which does deal with NZ:
"Faced with these powers, we have seen left-wing governments from Spain to *New Zealand* introduce right-wing policies. So even if we elected a radical party, or even the lesser evil, they would be powerless to change anything important and soon be forced to attack us in the interests of capitalism. Politicians come and go, but the state bureaucracy and big business remain forever!"
Or maybe, I need to repost the links above, to literature that specifically deals with Aotearoa? Like the many books and texts written over the years, and in more recent times (Toby's book 'Rebel Rousers', for example), or things like The Trade Union History Project (while not specifically anarchist, it recognises the influence of radical syndicalist ideas in NZ). How about the rich history of Anarchism and Aotearoa — women like Lola Ridge, an Anarcha-Feminist from the west coast who's poetry is widely recognised in the US, and may even be our most published poet ever? How about the intention of Emma Goldman, a radical and thought-provoking anarchist (of Malatesta's time) had not only 'heard' of NZ, but was intending to visit here until her visa was denied? How about the fact that the key founder of the International Workers of the World was from NZ? I could prattle on about the internationalist link of anarchism and it's universiality — and how they do relate to NZ, as equally as they relate the the universiality of Capitalism and the State — but then you'd have to be reading what I've been writing.
I don't even need to reply to your 'idealistic and hypocrsy' slurr, as the millions of oppressed individuals, workers, and peasants who have practiced direct action, mutual aid, self-management, and libertarian socialism speaks for itself. Maybe your the one who would do well in dusting off the books?
Cheers
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
the slowdown in increases in health spending as a result of this year's tax cuts? These are all issues of real concern to many working class NZ voters which I've mentioned and you have bypassed in favour of boring lectures about the history of your ism. Have you got anything to say about any issue which doesn't involve droning 'All gains made by working in the system are limited, the real road is anarchism, join the movement, read my old books'. If you can't offer an anarchist take on any of the burning issues then you might as well give up. At least the Marxist groups whtever their other faults do study economics and social conditions and come up with proposals and policies (ie the groups that have been campaigning to take GST off food...a good idea which people can relate to, unlike all this empty rhetoric you've been offering...
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
oh yeah love that eh, at the same time they will all gets pay rise...
i still wont vote i reakon because i don't think i makes a difference, natioall is getting in, could be conspiracy could just be we are stupid either way it is agiven
more importantly i think all alternative thinkers have to get together and just do our thing! if that includes taking action on things like G.E then i love the people who do it.
anarchism is not the answer, communism s not either, unconditional freedom for all a nice thought tat wont happen if everything needs a label!. the truth is not one person, group or beleif has any solution but our combined beleifs knowledge etc we can sort this shit out!
long love till the revolution
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
'There are heaps of alternatives we can work on while the benefit and student allowances last (I can't imagine Labour OR National will be keeping them for long) so that when we do lose them, we'll still be able to stand, stand even stronger.'
And what follows is a list of tips for living on the smell of an oily rag, including dumpster diving. Back to the 1920s, before proper unemployment relief, when unemployed lived on or over the brink of malnutrition. I'm not interested in adopting a vegan/alternative lifestyle or living off the land. I want to keep benefits available and increase them, so that I can fall back on them if I lose my job. It is the working class which creates the corporate wealth which is taxed (inadequately!) and goes into the benefits system and other parts of the welfare state and the health system. I say raise company tax and restore benefits to (in real terms) what they were before the '91 cuts. Just accepting that benefits will be abolished and getting on with organising for living with extreme poverty is really not going to appeal to your average NZ worker, who knows that the economy has been doing well up til this year and has seen profits rise and unemployment fall. We should ask for a bigger share of the cake, not walk away from the table and look for scraps in the local rubbish bin (or dumpster).
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
You keep harping on about Working For Families, GST tax, DPB without even any thought to connecting them to the bigger problem — the exploitation of the working class for the furtherment of Capitalism!
Unemployment figures may have risen, but what does that really mean? That more workers now get to enjoy the privilege of slaving for a wage while their boss gets rich?
Lets remove GST taxes on food — so we can ignore the issue of the complete monopoly in the industry, the fact that its cheaper to buy coke thatn milk, the fact that there is more than enough food to sufficently feed our country, but it doesn't happen! Removing GST isn't going to bring the working class one bit closer to taling control of the production of food and distribution!
Remember what Socialism is? Something along the lines of the control over the tools of production, ie communal ownership of the workplace, industry etc etc by the working class? Sound familiar? Or maybe we just don't really care about that, and should advocate for single issues instead. More Maori TV for the working class! Freedom through Taxes! Please.
I'm not a vegan. Lifestyles are a personal choice, and if you think the basis of anarchism is to simply move to the country, or to dumpster dive, then you're still not getting it. We don't want to walk away from the table, we want to destroy it, so the people on thye floor can eat too!
When it comes down to it, it's about the emancipation of the working class, and other opressions such as race, gender etc etc. Things that are frequently advocated by anarchists, and which is being done here in this forum. Have you even read my text above?
I agree with another poster above: there is no right or wrong answer, nor is anarchism pretending to be. There are many facets of thought out there, under whatever label — and seems worthwhile to discuss these facets, both inside and outside the realm of indymedia.
Cheers
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
'Lets remove GST taxes on food — so we can ignore the issue of the complete monopoly in the industry, the fact that its cheaper to buy coke thatn milk, the fact that there is more than enough food to sufficently feed our country, but it doesn't happen! Removing GST isn't going to bring the working class one bit closer to taling control of the production of food and distribution!'
Jared's comment shows again that he sees revolution and reform as either/ors. If we campaign to get rid of GST on food and help working class people afford their groceries at a time when costs are soaring, then we are diverting attention away from the case for revolution, cos we aren't talking about overturning the whole system. Better to hand out leaflets no one reads about what a good idea an anarchist revolution would be.
In real life though revolutions start with demands for reforms that people need. The Russian Revolution started with a strike in a factory. By organising to win reforms and get better pay and conditions people get strength and confidence and learn how to work together.
The demand to get rid of GST started with the Aliance in the '90s. It was and is a good demand. Some activists have been organising petitions this year calling for GST to come off food items and they have had a big response when they have stood outside supermarkets. Sure, as Jared says the demand is just talking about redistributing income. But then again demands for pay rises and benefit increases are also just demands for the redistribution of income. At the moment a lot of trade unions are demanding pay rises for their members to keep up with the increased cost of living.
The demand to drop GST is a very good one to use this year, because the big parties have tried to make the election about tax. Tax is a big topic in the media, but noone ever talks about GST, which is a flat and therefore effectively regressive tax - a tax that hurts the poor more thna the rich.
National is obsessed with cutting taxes for the rich and companies. The call for the abolition of GST takes the opposite angle and says 'what about helping the poor, not the rich?' It shows that the ruling class is actually only interested in cutting tax when they benefit. It is great that activists managed to get the demand for the abolition of GST into the media and into public consciousness.
If the campaign for the abolition of GST succeeded (not likely at the moment unfortunately) and if the unions get cost of living increases for their members (much more likely IMO) then the working class Jared spends so much time talking about will be strengthened and made more confident. It will be easier to talking about bigger issues. A larger number of workers will want to hear the case for socialism. Many will have learned about organisation and solidarity through the experience of fighting for more money. On the other hand nothing at all will be achieved by avoiding burning issues like tax and the cost of living and simply handing out leaflets calling for everyone to become an anarchist and smash the system.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Who needs the gains of the workers movement? The blood spilled dyed the flags red, and we are not reds, we are black. So lets not get locked into the system by accepting the benefit - a woman on the DPB is a cog in the same machine that the bosses own.
Eating out of the trash is the way forward for us. Maybe cut out the middle man and eat shit straight from someone's ass. Why not? Who needs the gains of the workers movement over the past 200 years.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
It's hard to know whether to laugh or cry reading stuff like this. Let's just call a general strike for next week, shall we? 23% of workers are in unions. The vast majority of them have never been on strike. It takes huge effort just to set up a union branch in a new site. It takes huge effort to run a strike on site. I would love to have a general strike next week. Guess what: putting up a post on indymedia calling for one isn't going to make it happen. A general strike isn't a 'first step' - it's something that takes an enormous amunt of organising and dicussion to achieve. And guess that: in many unions the membership is actually more conservatve than the officials! It's not like they're aching to strike and revolt and a conservative layer of officials is holding them back! I wish that was the case. We need to build up union density and confidence with campaigns like the ones I mentioned in the last post.
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
I think Jared summed it up best when he said: You just don't get it I'm sorry to say.
Your arguments continue along the same lin over and over again. A lot of anarchists have no interest in arguing over election policies and current reform measures because in the bigger picture it's a waste of time often (not always).
Sheesh, just trying to have an interesting discussion...
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Take the demand for dropping GST - it's an intriguing demand, since it isn't asking that workers recieve a bigger share of the profit, but that workers should be paying less of their income to the state. Nothing particularly wrong with that either, but the economic effect will be to temporarily reduce inflation and reduce pressure for wages rises. After a few years workers are likely to be much in the same position as they started.
On the other hand, demanding higher wages for workers, at the expense of profit, requires that workers increase their power as a class against the power of the profiteering class. It's part of a necesary agenda to empower workers, not simply asking for a better deal as consumers.
Cheers
Sam Buchanan
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
"Better to hand out leaflets no one reads about what a good idea an anarchist revolution would be."
and
"simply handing out leaflets calling for everyone to become an anarchist and smash the system."
I'm not sure how you figured me out so quickly? What I do with my days, who I work and organise with, what I do — ie handing out leaflets? Yep. That's pretty much my life. Oh and eating trash.
I'm going to ignore my lack of social life for a moment and discuss some of the point's you've made (there's a few). I'm not even sure if it's worth it, but hey, it beats handing out 'rubbish'.
I never said anything negative about the Maori channel. It's called 'humour'. I really like the Maori channel! Nor have I dismissed the value of past gains by activists and ordinary people using direct action for social change (that's the whole point!). What I had trouble with was seeing those single issues as ends in themselves. Of course these things have to be fought for, and defended, but if you mean to fight for these things and only those things via elections — or helping people realise the power of direct action and collective struggle (strikes or otherwise), and deal with the roots of our problems (and not just a temporary fix) then I know what I'd rather be doing. Also, Te Reo and Tino Tangatiratanga are a primary focus for many anarchists here in NZ (among others). I'm not sure where you were last October? Terror raids ring a bell?
Now, as regard to the recent factory closures and unions, that's another topic I'd love to talk to you and workers about — something central to pretty much all Socialist thought (and not just anarchist) which is called self-management and revolutionary syndicalism. Like Toby mentioned above (you seem to have a short memory), in a period of low class struggle, it makes it hard for individual factories such as the one's we've seen being closed, to come close to the kind of worker's management we've seen in Argentina over the last few years. What it does illustrate, and it's pretty clear to most, is that once again profit over workers has come first — something that will exist whether Labour OR National are in power. That's the nature of the beast, and that's the message that is ignored everytime any kind of group that makes lobbies for parliament their main tactic. I'm not trivialisng these realities, I'm trying to illustrate a point.
"By organising to win reforms and get better pay and conditions people get strength and confidence and learn how to work together."
That's great, and totally essential to social change. But alone, it's not enough. Learning to work together gets thrown out the window as soon as you delegate that power to a politician in the process of voting.
"Many will have learned about organisation and solidarity through the experience of fighting for more money".
That's great too. But are workers learnig the modes of organisation you think are essential (as do all anarchists) by letting Alliance or The Workers Party to do it for them? This is the key to what I understand of anarchism — that through direct action, orgainisng ourselves in the community and the workplace, and learning to fight together in solidarity now (and not just waiting for elections to bring it up for the 'bosses' to decide) is far more worthwhile and empowering than passing off our real, tangible problems to a politician, a union offical, or even a 'revolutionary'. It's this kind of representation that keeps workers dependent on some higher power, instead of us doing it ourselves, equally and directly (which, comes back to my article above!).
"23% of workers are in unions."
Could this be because of the fact that our current unions are extremely similar to the process of party voting, party leaders, and parliament? Hopelessy moderate, and far from effective? That figure in itself is a strong enough argument to show how people are totally apathetic towards the methods of parties, unions and voting. That the fact voting hasn't made any significant change in our present realities of wage slavery and rampant capitalism illustrates the degree of hope invested in that kind of representation. And take note, I'm not against unions or workers demands, only in it's present, reformist state (something quite different to the kind of revolutionary unionism advocated in anarcho-syndicalism, currently huge in Spain, France and Latin America). Nor di I dismiss NZeds past militant unions (again, see the links I've posted — 'Revolution' by the Trade Union History Project is a great book on the 1913 great strike).
"We need to build up union density and confidence with campaigns like the ones I mentioned in the last post."
You mention this in the same framework as the recent factory closures. Why would anyone invest time and confidence in a union which negotiates with the employer on nothing more than severage packages? And you wonder why union levels are so low.
Anyway, I'd love to go on, but I'm sure peeps are sick of the Jared/Anonymous show, so maybe we could continue it elsewhere (I'd be happy to email you). What I will suggest (because you seem passionate and sincere) is to have an objective look at the ideas of anarchism. A lot of anarchists arrive at their ideas through socialist thought and action, even Marxist ones. We all want the same thing, its means and ends which we tend to clash on.
Cheers
Jared D
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Yes, but lack of interest in unions is also ideological. Years of anti-collective and pro-market propaganda from the neo-liberals have undermined awareness of the need for workers to come together, understand their own interests and struggle against the people they are working for.
And this is why you (Jared) need to keep on spending your entire life handing out those leaflets that call for people to become anarchists :)
Cheers
Sam Buchanan
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
F
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Disease is at its highest rate ever .. all of the main organs of state are corrupt and in particular the police .. the family courts the NZ Star Chamber is in full swing and is being rapidly expanded .. all based on Zionist style lies.
What are we going to do about it?
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Disease is at its highest rate ever .. all of the main organs of state are corrupt and in particular the police .. the family courts the NZ Star Chamber is in full swing and is being rapidly expanded .. all based on Zionist style lies.
What are we going to do about it?
Didn't Vote? Tell Us Why!
indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/40773/index.php
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Jared, unless you have some inside knowledge, I think you are missing the nail painting your Anonymous critic as a Marxist. A left-liberal Greens or Alliance supporter (of the Bradford type for example) would raise similar arguments.
As I've said before, I think standing in elections, and voting as a bloc for a particular party or candidate(s) can be valid tactics, although I agree with Jared that seeing these people as leaders and sitting back while they fix everything from inside is unwise and ineffective.
Personally, I think the lesser-evil *theory* is very plausible, how about we test it? Let's say we tell people 'we think only grassroots organizing will solve our problems, but if you don't agree, vote for X Party', where X is your perceived lesser-evil? If we're wrong and a Greens/ Maori Party/ Alliance/ RAM/ whoever coalition become government and solve all our problems, great! If not, we have evidence to support our position that grassroots organizing is more effective than voting. At the time, we come across as less dogmatic, and can take indirect credit for any positive reforms these parties do achieve in parliament, rather than being seen as opposing positive change for ideological reasons.
I remember anarchists using the lesser-evil arguments against voting for proportional representation and MMP. The same people will insist that anarchists like Met and Nandor were able to get into parliament because they 'sold out', rather than because the grassroots campaign for MMP (opposed by big business lobbyists at every turn) stuck a crowbar into parliament and made it both more accessible and more transparent. I suggest these people are arguing from ideology rather than fact, and I'd like to see any one of them call Met or Nandor a sell-out to their face.
Jared argues that voting isn't enough. Anonymous says that just handing out leaflets isn't enough. I agree with both. No single action or tactic is enough. The changes we need to make will be massive, and on-going, and will be made up of many individual actions, each informed by open communication and strategizing across different political networks.
I don't think the Worker's Party are campaigning to become leaders through being elected, but to subvert elections as a medium to communicate their ideas beyond their usual activist circles. That's definitely the motive of the ALCP, who I am standing for this election. Anarchists could try the same strategy out a few different ways - by campaigning for a 'No Confidence Party' or 'No Government Party' (real or fictional), or by running as independents and using meet-the-candidate meetings to talk about community-based alternatives to the state and capitalism.
For example, I like the idea of setting up dual-power structures. I would expect an anarchist society to have some kind of national representative structure, made up of recallable delegates from self-constituting communities and/or workplaces. Such a structure would provide an overview of what is happening in different fields (eg health, education) across the whole country, helping local groups to make informed decisions and co-ordinate with other groups at a larger scale. What's stopping us experimenting with creating such a structure now, and encouraging people to join in somehow instead *or* as well as voting in elections.
Strypey
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
Problem is, voting is rather like prayer - if it doesn't get results someone can always say you didn't do enough, prayed to the wrong god or whatever, or just lead to an endless debate about whether the limited results were enough to justify it. It will never provide a clear experiment that proves something one way or another.
"The same people will insist that anarchists like Met and Nandor were able to get into parliament because they 'sold out'"
I don't think a term like 'sold out' means anything, the issue is whether much has been achieved by getting a couple of decent people into parliament to become managers of capitalism. I would argue Meyt and Nandor and their supporters were more use elsewhere. Getting a few Green MPs elected has come at a huge cost to the environmental movement in terms of time and energy which could have been used to run grassroots environmental campaigns.
cheers
Sam
Re: Organise! The Alternative To Voting!
While I agree with some of your comment, I have trouble with some of your suggestions (and please don't take this as an afront to you!).
"I don't think the Worker's Party are campaigning to become leaders through being elected, but to subvert elections as a medium to communicate their ideas beyond their usual activist circles. That's definitely the motive of the ALCP, who I am standing for this election. Anarchists could try the same strategy out a few different ways - by campaigning for a 'No Confidence Party' or 'No Government Party' (real or fictional), or by running as independents and using meet-the-candidate meetings to talk about community-based alternatives to the state and capitalism."
This idea of using elections for propaganda purposes is as old as the argument itself, and I think is flawed. However, the reasoning behind it also shows how problematic it is for 'activists' to branch out of their circles and connect and learn from workers in a period of low ideological activity.
Again, I don't think we should be using the current platform to propagate socialist ideas, for reasons I have stated numerously above. If our task is to create dual power structures at complete odds to the current system, then wouldn't our efforts be better suited at trying to work more effectively than we do now with workers directly, rather than calling for change within the system, even if it was via an 'anti-party party'. I just reckon we would send a mixed message, rather than creating real alternatives.
'For example, I like the idea of setting up dual-power structures. I would expect an anarchist society to have some kind of national representative structure, made up of recallable delegates from self-constituting communities and/or workplaces. Such a structure would provide an overview of what is happening in different fields (eg health, education) across the whole country, helping local groups to make informed decisions and co-ordinate with other groups at a larger scale"
This I totally agree with, and think should be a priority, rather than doing it via elections. We could take more steps to develop an inclusive Aotearoa Anarchist Federation, getting our ideas amongst workers, and learnig more about workers and their needs — I would rather invest my time in that, rather than standing in elections. But that's just me : )
Cheers
Jared D